Hon. Leo Housakos: Would Senator Tannas take a question?

Senator Housakos: Senator Tannas, we’ve heard this complaint from colleagues of ours for years and years. What action do you recommend we take to finally send a message to the executive branch of government that they should not treat Parliament as nothing more than a rubber stamp?

Senator Housakos: Senator Tannas, thank you for your amendment and for highlighting what has become progressively worse year after year with these omnibus bills. Those of us who take our constitutional responsibilities in this chamber seriously recognize that we’re impeded from doing some serious work on some serious bills that have nothing to do with the budget. Yesterday, Senator Simons spoke to the passenger rights bill that has been plugged into this particular budget bill and has nothing to do with the budget, and, of course, it’s very important.

At the end of the day, I don’t think there is anything nefarious on the part of the government. I just think it’s a matter of convenience and a matter of bypassing the nuisance of Parliament, and what comes of it is bad legislation that touches particular citizens.

If this amendment that you propose is gloriously defeated by the government, would you take the principled stance of finally joining those of us in this chamber and send a message by voting against this budget implementation act and by saying that we’re not going to stand for this anymore?

Senator Housakos: Thank you for making my point, Senator Dasko. The Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, or CRTC, does make rulings when it comes to these issues.

First of all, as we know, the bill says clearly, and the CRTC chair recognized that language in the bill. He also recognized that bill gives him the authority to demand outcomes, to force these platforms to arrive at a certain outcome. As I pointed out in my speech, we saw a number of attempts by officials and by the CRTC to explain to the committee how you could create a certain outcome without algorithmic manipulation. There is only one way to drive outcome. If the outcome by the CRTC, for example, is a list of criteria they expect the platforms to prioritize, other than algorithm manipulation, what is it exactly that the platforms will be able to do to achieve CRTC expectations vis-à-vis the outcomes? Maybe you have an answer.

Senator Housakos: It would be my pleasure.

Senator Housakos: Yes.

Senator Housakos: If the chamber indulges me.

Senator Housakos: It does not address my concerns, and it did not address the concerns of all of the digital-first content producers who came before our committee. You were a diligent part of that process.

With all due respect, pop-ups and advertising strips do not drive content. That was also validated by the platforms themselves when they came before our committee. There was never an ambiguity that there is only one way to drive outcomes, and that is algorithmic manipulation. That is clear in the report. There was no witness that called that into question — not the platforms themselves and not the CRTC chairs themselves.

Furthermore, the problem we have, as we’ve seen in history, the CRTC has full discretion in the old Broadcasting Act and they do today. The CRTC chair admitted that he has full authority in order to implement the Broadcasting Act. We had an example last year when the CRTC censored a particular program and a journalist at Radio-Canada because a word was used that was deemed inappropriate by the CRTC. They had the power with the old Broadcasting Act to censor that journalist. I will not get into the details and I will not use the word because it is inappropriate, but it is an example of how the CRTC has the power to censor. We should be very careful. And why are we fearful?

Hon. Leo Housakos: Therefore, honourable senators, in amendment, I move:

That Bill C-11, as amended, be not now read a third time, but that it be further amended,

(a) in clause 3 (as amended by the decision of the Senate on December 14, 2022), on page 8, by replacing line 31 with the following:

(b) in clause 10 (as amended by the decision of the Senate on December 14, 2022), on page 14, by replacing lines 27 to 30 with the following:

“services for selection by the public;”.

Honourable senators, I thank you for your consideration.

Senator Housakos: Yes, I truly believe that culture is a commodity like any other. It is important to get the best products out there, the best artists and the best people in the field, people who can attract more interest. That will transform the whole thing into a money-maker. Our goals are aligned. I want to protect francophone Quebec culture. I am proud to be a Quebecer, and I am very proud of the importance of promoting Quebec culture, but our approach is very different.

You’re obsessed with protectionism when you try to restrict the promotion of French culture to a limited market that has only a few million francophones in Quebec and Canada. I want to use the platform we have before us and I’m fighting for all Quebecers who call me every day, who send emails and who give me the courage to continue my fight in this place, on their behalf, because for the past few years, thanks to this platform, they’ve had the opportunity to export their French culture to hundreds of millions of francophones around the world.

You now seem convinced that protectionism, a closed approach that limits opportunities for these people and forces them to work in a smaller market, is the best option for them rather than making the entire francophone world available to them. I am fighting for these people. I don’t understand why you’re not as enthusiastic as I am about the idea of maintaining and protecting the wealth that has developed over the past 15 to 20 years thanks to various international platforms.

[English]

Senator Housakos: Thank you, senator, for your question. Actually, I see two questions in there.

The algorithmic process that is used by platforms right now is organic. It is not controlled by any one person; it is controlled by you and me. If we have a phone or an iPad and are on these platforms, we determine what is prioritized.

These platforms are in the business of volume. They give the consumer what the consumer wants. That is what I’m fighting for. All I’m simply saying is it is not incumbent upon you or I to determine what should or should not be censored.

I have faith in the Canadian public. I do not believe that most Canadians are misogynistic, racist or Islamophobic. I believe that, at the end of the day, they will make the right choices.

When we see things on the web that are deplorable, all of us, as Canadians, call it out. When we see something that we want to really push forward, we will get up and push it forward without any hindrance or determination by any minister or politician. I don’t care if it is a Conservative, a Liberal or a Communist for that matter.

On your second question, the truth of the matter is that in the last decade — and I touched upon it in my speech, as did Senator Plett — we are talking, in 2021, $5 billion of investment in the arts and culture sector. I know you have many years of experience at the CRTC in arts and culture. You name me what year the Canadian government was able to inject into Canada $5 billion in arts and culture.

We keep putting $1.4 billion into the CBC and no one watches it, and God knows we’re not consulted about it. The ratings keep going down. Everyone is going to streaming and to all of these platforms that we are trying to demonize, but these platforms have put more investment into Canadian arts and culture than ever before.

As I said it in my speech — and we saw it in the testimony — there is a plethora, not a shortage, right now of Canadian artists working today making films and documentaries, and producing songs, shows and art like never before. Let’s unleash that Canadian culture. We’re punching above our weight around the world. Let’s continue to give more of Canada to the world instead of giving it less by closing our borders.

Hon. Leo Housakos: Thank you, Senator Downe, for this important amendment that you’re putting forward. We’ve been asked, with Bill C-11, on countless occasions by the government and others to trust the CRTC going forward in order to set reasonable standards and a framework for Bill C-11. We see now a very blatant example of how the CRTC neglects to enforce licensing obligations on a particular broadcaster.

The question I have for you is the following: Can we have faith, when they do not impose the obligations already — for example, they’ve never fined the CBC when it’s well within their right to do so when they don’t respect licensing; the CBC has never had public hearings in order to justify the reduction of services — can we trust the CRTC to ultimately do the job they’ve been given to do?

Senator Housakos: Senator Simons, I’m a little confused. You’re either for transparency or you’re not. The problem we have had over many decades is that the CBC, when it comes to dealing with certain aspects, is taken away from the realm of good governance and the board, and they are managed directly by the minister’s office and whoever the CEO is, who has been appointed by the minister’s office to begin with. The Broadcasting Act is the exact place to protect taxpayers’ money.

What would be the hesitation, if we believe in transparency, putting it crystal clear in this revamped, modern and renewed Broadcasting Act to make sure that the CBC — which is funded completely by taxpayers’ money — will be transparent like every other government agency?

Senator Housakos: Would Senator Simons take a question?

Hon. Leo Housakos: Thank you, Senator Manning, for another attempt to bring some sanity to a very insane piece of legislation.

Honourable colleagues, how many times have we heard — time and time again, when concerns have been raised by digital content creators, by digital-first creators, in this country — “Trust us”? Trust us. User-generated content is not included in this bill.

How many times have we heard the minister, officials, government officials and sponsors of the bill come and say, “Trust us”?

“Absolutely. Platforms are in; users are out.”

At every turn, government MPs in the House, the government in the Senate committee, they have done everything they can to not allow for any thresholds, to not allow crystal black and white statements that clarify for the hundreds of thousands — if not millions — of Canadians who, today, are using the digital web as an opportunity to promote Canadian culture, and who have created outstanding businesses; they are looking at this, and they are saying that what we have created is at the fate — right now — of the CRTC without any clarity in the bill.

Senator Deacon, you are absolutely right: We need to get rid of red tape in this country. We need to make things less complicated. The best way to do that is to entrench those protections in the bill before it gets to the regulatory stage.

You think we are cutting through regulations by sending this problem to the CRTC, and letting them consult for a year and come back to us with a list of regulations — without guidelines being clarified here and now in order to alleviate the concerns of generated content producers in this country? I’m sorry. I’m not going to leave it to a bunch of appointed individuals who, at the end of the day — as you’ll read in the Broadcasting Act — take their guidelines, ultimately, from the government. They have complete power. We have heard at our committee, over many months, the concerns of stakeholders — both from those in favour of and those against the bill — that the Canadian Radio‑television and Telecommunications Commission, or CRTC, has an atrocious record when it comes to consultation and transparency. We also heard from many stakeholders, including large broadcasters, that in order to navigate through the bureaucracy of the CRTC, you need deep pockets and a lot of lawyers on your payroll.

So, yes, Senator Dawson, I am very excited and very stressed about this bill, more than I have been in the past, because I’m concerned about the hundreds of thousands of Canadians and digital first creators in this country who came and pleaded with us for some sanity in the legislation, and they have asked to be excluded. At the end of the day, I don’t believe Canadian culture is in peril nor at risk. I think our committee has seen in their study over the last few months that Canadian culture is booming like never before. Actors are busier than ever before. Producers are busier than ever before, as are directors, singers, songwriters and extras. Every region of the country is benefiting over the last decade; we have seen it. Movie production companies and documentary producers are coming in and using Canada as a place and using Canada’s talent and art to propel their work around the world.

The digital web has given us a market that we never dreamed of 30 or 40 years ago when we were looking at this archaic Broadcasting Act and protecting the broadcasting industry. Billions of people around the world are jumping onto YouTube, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok to look at our Indigenous talent, to look at our francophone talent and they are thriving like never before. With all due respect, I don’t buy the argument that we need to protect them.

Do you know who this bill is protecting? It’s only protecting one group of individuals, and that is the group involved in the old broadcasting model, which we all know has failed. In 2023, they are bankrupt. Bell Media is bankrupt. CBC is bankrupt. They are not making money because they are outdated. Canadians are not going to those platforms for their information anymore. Only old guys like me — old boomers — are sitting there watching the news on TV at night. My 26- and 23-year-old children walk by and laugh at me because they are streaming. Yes, they are on their iPads and their phones. I’m starting to realize they are getting information quicker than I am. That’s who I relied on in order to draw my conclusions in regard to this bill.

The traditional broadcasters can do somersaults and try to convince the government to throw more money into the Canada Media Fund and into Telefilm Canada. Change your model because, clearly, I don’t see any streamers rushing to become broadcasters, but we see every broadcasting platform going digital over the last 10 years. The CBC has spent millions trying to go digital — CTV and all of them — because that’s the way of the future.

We need to encourage Canadians and young Canadians to take advantage of that opportunity and to continue to grow, not to hinder them by basically saying to the CRTC, “Create an even playing field.” I use this analogy. We have right now the digital world — a Lamborghini — and we have the traditional broadcasting world — a horse and cart. We want to create an equal race. Well, unless you’re going to give the horse and cart a 5-mile lead in a 5.1-mile race, I’m still betting on the Lamborghini.

We have to start being realistic when we say it’s time to start reviewing our Broadcasting Act. We must understand the realities that we face today.

Senator Deacon mentioned that we must protect our industry and make sure that foreign investors don’t come in and somehow hinder the marketplace. It’s because of Netflix, Disney Plus and those foreign investors that we’ve had billions of dollars coming into Canada and that our industry artists are busier than ever before. They are working. There is a shortage. They are making money. They are paying taxes to the Canada Revenue Agency. By the way, all of these streamers, bloggers and independent content producers are paying a ton of taxes to the Canada Media Fund. Under Bill C-11, who will benefit from that? Even to this day, who benefits? The traditional broadcasters dive into that money, continuing to produce shows at taxpayers’ expense — shows that no one is watching. Do I need to pull out the ratings to let you know that, for example, no one is watching CBC anymore? Yet, the whole point of this bill is that someone is making money and someone isn’t, and for the guys who are not, there is a reason for it. Someone decided they need to be propped up. Well, prop them up all you want, but if the problem is your business model, you will die a slow, painful death.

In our committee, thanks to Senator Klyne, we heard from Indigenous witnesses. He fought hard right to the end to make sure they were heard, and they said it best. Under these new platforms, Indigenous culture from our country is being spread to places like France and South America — to all corners of the world, like never before. They pleaded to make sure that the CRTC and any element of Bill C-11 — or whatever it morphs into, because we don’t know what those regulations will be like — not stop them. They said, word for word, “Please, stay out of our way because we are being very successful.”

Why would we put in peril every Canadian who is on these platforms right now, enjoying the liberty to express themselves? By the way, we are dominating. We’re punching above our weight. Every single witness who came before our committee made it evidently clear that Canada is punching above its weight when you look at our footprint in terms of arts and culture around the world.

We are a small market. We need the world. We are not a trading country only in lumber, in agricultural goods and in energy. We are a trading country in culture as well. As Senator Richards appropriately said, there are so many people who can buy books in Canada, but there are billions of people around the world who can buy the works of Canadian authors that they like.

Now, one of the biggest problems with this bill is the scope. We must broaden our scope. We have to think large as Canadians. I think I heard Senator Miville-Dechêne say, in speaking about her amendment, that it would address thresholds and it would, for example, compel the CRTC — according to her amendment — to consider digital first creators. Correct? And I think one of the words in her amendment is “consider.”

With all due respect, colleagues, if I try to amend the bill and I’m telling the CRTC that we recognize weaknesses that we want them to address in their deliberations and their regulations and the amendment says, “I want the CRTC to consider A, B, C,” well, “consider” is not very prescriptive. We all know how the CRTC works. They’re going to consider it all right. They will hold hearings and they will report as usual. It’s not very binding.

We have fought very hard to put forward amendments with some teeth to protect content producers who are small players, who are living off their small stream of revenue — independent, Canadian content producers. A $10-million threshold is the bare minimum to provide some protection in a concrete way and to entrench it in the bill so that the CRTC has no manoeuvrability to avoid accepting that reality.

My only conclusion on why there’s such pushback from the government is that, at the end of the day and with all due respect, I just don’t believe when government says that, “Platforms are in, and independent digital content producers are out.” I don’t believe them; I’m sorry. If you won’t accept a threshold of $100 million, $50 million, $10 million, why would I believe you are going to accept any threshold on goodwill? How many of you will buy a product and have a contract in which everything is highlighted except the delivery date? How many of you would accept that?

“Can you just put the delivery date?”

“Oh, no, trust us. You will get it by February 1.”

“Well, yes, but can we just put it in the contract?”

“No, no, no. Just trust us.”

Please, colleagues, at a bare minimum, can we please accept this reasonable amendment that will give a little bit of hope to those young Canadians across this country who are looking for some clarity and some security so they can continue to promote their cultures and their businesses in a fair, free market way? Thank you, colleagues.

Senator Housakos: I totally agree with you that regulating the World Wide Web is very complicated, and, once you embark upon that, it becomes a runaway train. We know what happens when the CRTC takes what seems to be a complicated matter: They like to add multiple layers and make it complicated.

My understanding is that Senator Manning is trying to carve out broadcasting undertakings here. You are absolutely right that $10 million is a lot for small players. It is minuscule for the big players, and we’re going after the big players. I think this amendment attempts to say that we are all in favour of getting the big giant streamers to pay more, but let’s protect the small independent Canadians.

My question is on your and Senator Miville-Dechêne’s amendments, which I did support and I think they are a good step. The problem is that they are not very rigid or prescriptive. It gives the CRTC full latitude at the end of the day.

How hopeful can we be that the amendments as they currently are, with such wide latitude given to the CRTC, have the desired effect?