44th Parl. 1st Sess.
October 30, 2023
- 11:52:59 a.m.
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Thank you.
That's debate. Its not a point of order.
Dr. Kitchen, go ahead.
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- 11:53:05 a.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The research out there says that, in hospital situations, 7.5% of the patient population that gets admitted to hospitals is due to adverse events for regulated prescription medications. That's huge—7.5%—when you compare that to 700 for natural health products. Ultimately, “The Canadian Adverse Events Study”—this is from back in 2004—showed that, of that 185,000 of the 2.5 million hospital admissions, 70,000 of those could potentially have been prevented. This is with regard to prescription medications. To turn around and say 700 from natural health food products.... Look at the difference. There's a huge difference between those numbers.
I think this is a very educational part. We need to be very aware of these facts. We need to turn around and say that, yes, there are adverse effects. Yes, the industry needs to make certain that they're doing what they're doing, and it needs to be stepping up to make certain that that's done. I believe that the industry is doing that and making the steps, and it's prepared to make changes. However, when all of a sudden this government turns around and starts putting in right-to-sell, per-item costs for that industry, it's a huge cost, and that's an annual cost for every product they have. Then you turn around and take a look at the class of the level of the product that they're trying to sell.
I remember when I was a regulator dealing in the industry and in my profession. People brought across the table a new ultrasound machine. It had to go in front of Health Canada, and in front of Health Canada, it had to go through the process of making sure that it was appropriate. That cost was huge. Now, granted, we're talking about a product that's providing ultrasound treatment to somebody. Yes, there are a lot of issues that can result in various side effects there, so that product needed to be regulated appropriately. However, the costs were huge. When we're talking about a health food product—like a vitamin—and we classify that and have these huge, thousands-of-dollars costs.... Then, on top of that, you have the site licensing fees, which are supposed to be based on a cost recovery, yet no one has done an assessment on exactly what that cost is. These are huge amounts. I think the steps and the processes are not in place to follow those aspects and to make certain that we are doing what we should be doing.
My colleague has put forward a motion that we're dealing with that I think we need to look at, and look at immediately, to turn around and say to the government that this is wrong. The regulatory process has been put forward. Many people in the industry have put forward their information. It's time to turn to the government and say that this is not acceptable. Either it goes back to relooking at this, or we end it as we speak.
With that said, Mr. Chair, I want to thank you for the ability to speak on this.
I ask my colleagues to support this motion.
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- 11:57:00 a.m.
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Thank you, Dr. Kitchen.
Before I recognize Dr. Hanley, I just want to say something to the witnesses.
You committed to be here for one hour. We are now approaching the end of that hour. The first thing I want to say to you is thank you. However, the second thing is that, if we are able to dispense with this motion, I will be asking the committee to allow you to stay until the end of the meeting in case there are questions for you. That may be a decision that we will take.
I understand that you committed to be here for an hour, so if you wish to leave, you're free to do so. If you are able to stay, there's a chance that you may be able to further contribute if we can deal with the motion and if the committee agrees to include you in the rounds of questions after the next panel has a chance to present their opening statements.
With that, next on the speakers list with regard to the motion is Dr. Hanley.
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- 11:57:58 a.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for their patience.
We're all concerned about the viability of the natural health products industry.
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- 11:58:10 a.m.
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On a point of order, Mr. Chair.
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- 11:58:13 a.m.
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We have a point of order from Mr. Thériault.
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- 11:58:15 a.m.
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We need to fix the sound in the room so that I can hear the interpretation.
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- 11:58:23 a.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Thériault. We'll do that right now.
Could you hold off for a second, Dr. Hanley? We want to make sure it's not dangerous for those listening in terms of the sound levels.
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- 11:58:40 a.m.
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- 11:58:47 a.m.
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Yes. The sound in the room seems fine.
Go ahead.
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- 11:58:52 a.m.
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Once again, thank you, Mr. Chair.
Look, I just want to emphasize that we're all concerned about the viability of the natural health products industry, just as we're concerned about the safety of Canadians.
First, I want to call out my colleague for calling into question the integrity of Dr. Sharma as Health Canada's chief medical adviser. To call her testimony “misinformation”, even if there is disagreement over what she said, is frankly outrageous.
I want to just clarify that—
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- 11:59:28 a.m.
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Dr. Kitchen, on a point of order.
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- 11:59:30 a.m.
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I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I guess the question is on using the word “misinformation”. His interpretation of the word “misinformation”, if you look it up in the dictionary, is totally different from what the actual terminology is.
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- 11:59:48 a.m.
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That was a point of debate, not a point of order.
Go ahead, Dr. Hanley.
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- 11:59:54 a.m.
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Thank you.
What Dr. Sharma said, or was trying to make the point about, was that, if natural health products are making claims against serious diseases and people believe these claims, they may be using those treatments instead of treatments that could potentially help their own condition or that of their loved ones. That was the context for what Dr. Sharma said. Using the word “misinformation” associated with her is to call into question her integrity.
I also know that my Conservative colleagues are equally concerned, if not outraged, at some of the regulatory gaps that we presently experience with natural health products and that Health Canada and the Minister of Health are currently trying to address with these changes. Let me quote the testimony from some of my Conservative friends at last year's public accounts committee when they looked at this issue.
Conservative MP Jeremy Patzer asked Health Canada officials: “Why aren't the penalties higher on those manufacturers who fail to meet Health Canada's standards? ...The maximum fine for violating the law is only $5,000. It just seems like it's not a large enough deterrent to stop the bad actors from violating the rules that have been imposed.”
MP Philip Lawrence asked, “Do you not find this disturbing, and are there any products out there right now that are supposed to be recalled and are not?”
MP Jeremy Patzer asked, “Again, when we're seeing things such as, literally, every single site had issues but it's only a $5,000 deterrent for having contaminants in your product, what is the level of the sense of urgency to actually get some real, strong deterrents and actual teeth that are going to prevent bad actors from taking advantage of Canadians...?” He goes on to ask, “What are you guys going to do and what is the level of urgency to make sure that we actually get real teeth...?”
Further to that, MP Patzer asked, “How do we make sure Canadians are confident in the products they're buying, when there are so many holes, gaps and issues, whether they be contaminated products, expired products or not even knowing where these products are manufactured or where they're coming from?”
Look, we called this meeting to hear from witnesses to get evidence on the very questions that were being posed about getting the balance right between product safety and the viability of the natural health products industry, and in fact its ability to thrive with complete consumer confidence. That's why we called this meeting to hear from witnesses with various points of view.
It is on that note that I move that the debate now be adjourned.
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- 12:02:34 p.m.
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We have a motion to adjourn debate. That motion is not debatable. We must proceed directly to a vote.
The question for the committee is whether the debate now be adjourned.
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- 12:02:51 p.m.
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Chair, I'd like to request a recorded vote, please.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)
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- 12:02:54 p.m.
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Debate on the motion is, therefore, adjourned.
We've reached the end of the first hour. I would now invite our panel for the second hour to come forward.
Colleagues, do we have consensus to allow the witnesses who haven't had a chance to take questions to remain in the event that some of the time allotted for questions in the second hour could be used to pose questions to all four witnesses? Are we okay to proceed in that fashion? I see heads nodding around the table.
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chair: To those who are here, you are more than welcome and in fact are encouraged to stay. We're going to hear opening statements from the next panel. Then there will be an opportunity for members of Parliament to question anyone they wish to from either of the panels. If you could do that, we would greatly appreciate it. Thank you for your patience.
We will allow for the next panel to get themselves set up. I would ask them to go ahead and do that now.
Colleagues, I don't actually want to suspend the meeting. I think we can use the time productively. There is a housekeeping matter that I want to bring to your attention. That is simply on the matter of study budgets. You would have received from the clerk two study budgets for upcoming studies. I'm hoping we can dispense with them rather quickly.
One is in connection with the very study we're looking at now. The amount requested for witness expenses, working meals and headsets is $8,250. That's been circulated.
As you know, colleagues, this is essentially a pro forma amount that probably will not reflect what will actually be spent. It is simply to allot those funds so that whatever expenses are incurred in the conduct of this study will be available to us. The first is in connection with this particular study on the Department of Health's regulatory changes on natural health products.
Is there any discussion on that proposed budget?
Dr. Ellis, go ahead.
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- 12:06:44 p.m.
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I'm sorry, Chair, but you said $8,250. Do we have an idea whether it will potentially be 10% or 20% more or less?
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- 12:06:54 p.m.
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That's the maximum it can be. That allows for an envelope of four witnesses to travel from Toronto and one to travel from Quebec, with one headset and one working meal for each of the witnesses. That's the total amount we're allotting. It will almost certainly be less.
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