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Context: Subject Matter of Bill C-45, An Act to amend the First Nations Fiscal Management Act (INAN) - May/3/23

04:43:21 p.m.
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Sorry, I think I will move on. That's fair, and I appreciate your response. In that context, again, I want to follow up a little on what Mr. Daniels talked about in the context of this concept. If we can get this concept up and running fully, he put it into the comparison of how many houses we could build, how many water treatment plants or recreation facilities, etc. I have some examples in northwest Saskatchewan that you and I have talked about in the context of investments in an oriented strand board mill, where that equity investment would create significant dividends for 12 first nations in northwest Saskatchewan down the road. If we can get these things going sooner rather than later, for so many people in a riding like mine, which is 70% indigenous, in northwest Saskatchewan, we can create the opportunity, create the jobs, create the economic prosperity that comes with this stuff. It is a way we're going to solve many of these infrastructure challenges. We know the gap is great. I know you've talked about it lots of times. I just implore you and the department to say that we need to move on this. Capital streams are going up 2% a year or something like that. Inflation is going up. Pick a number at this point. We're losing ground on these things. I would just implore you to say that this is such an important concept. I think it could be a very big part of the solution. Obviously, the folks in the First Nations Fiscal Management Act organizations would agree with that.

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Hon. Marc Miller

04:44:55 p.m.
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Absolutely. I think we have to understand the premises and the conclusion, obviously, to try to state something that makes sense with respect to monetization. It's not the be-all and end-all, but certainly it is a lever that we're not using or having communities use to the full extent that they could, given the current model. There are some communities that don't have the good fortune of having those revenue streams or sources of income that they could then leverage into larger forms of financing. The basic premise of what is being advanced is that the current grant model that the federal government puts forward is not enough to close the gap in the period of time within which we all aspire to close it. There are other levers that we also have to examine, whether that's within the Infrastructure Bank, better access to equity as opposed to simply getting debt, looking at the grant model or looking at how it serves communities, especially those in the most need. But clearly—it's a long way to go to agree—I will agree with you on that point. We have to fully understand what particular stream of money it is that people are wishing to pledge against a larger set of a financial commitment. That is not entirely clear all the time in these discussions, but it is a very important one to have, because not all revenue streams can be subject to what these institutions are looking for.

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Mr. Gary Vidal

04:46:27 p.m.
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In an interview with Paul Wells back in February, you talked about economic reconciliation in terms of how it can become a catchphrase. Can I just ask you what you meant by that?

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Hon. Marc Miller

04:46:39 p.m.
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Absolutely. That will probably take more time than the time allotted. I think we've had a nasty habit in government of picking winners and losers in indigenous communities. When you talk about economic reconciliation, often it has become an opportunity to ignore the elephant in the room, which often is the federal government not paying its long-overdue debts, the failure of which has caused the socio-economic gaps. Trying to plug that gap with new financial instruments without addressing the underlying causes of that socio-economic underdevelopment is, I think, a warning to us all because we've all been guilty of it. My only point is that you can't walk into the most prosperous community in Canada and say this model needs to apply everywhere else in Canada. I think that is a warning to all of us when we try to use indigenous communities to augment our own political positions. That was the long explanation.

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Mr. John Aldag (Cloverdale—Langley City, Lib.)

04:47:43 p.m.
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Minister, welcome. It's great to have you here. This is the first time since I've joined the committee that I've been able to be here with you present. It's great to see you. Welcome to the officials, and thank you for also being here today. Because I'm fairly new to this committee, I'd like to start with a bit of a high-level question, just to get your thoughts on why this piece of legislation is important to reconciliation in Canada. We've heard that the act itself has been in place since 2005. Now we're in 2023 and we're putting forward a number of amendments. Why is it at this point in time that this legislation is needed? Could you give us a sense of that? Particularly if there are others who are new to the table or watching who may be interested in why this legislation is before the House, it would be great to hear from you on that.

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Hon. Marc Miller

04:48:34 p.m.
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Thank you. It's an excellent question. Even though it is relatively recent in the arc of legislation that deals with indigenous communities, it has been and still is seen as one that is very progressive: namely, in what we aspire to be as a country, which is in a position of equals with indigenous communities. One of the first things you see when you talk about that position of equals is the reality of the socio-economic gaps that have put us and particularly the Government of Canada in a position of power. You talk about nationhood, and “nation to nation” presumes a relationship of equals. When that socio-economic relationship isn't the case, it creates the outcomes that we are seeing today. A lot of these pieces of legislation were put forward by very progressive members who were indigenous and had a vision of how their own communities, in the circumstances of being subject to the Indian Act, could get out of some of the more onerous and heavy provisions of the act and take control over their assets and over the future of their peoples. They were put in place with that spirit in mind, whether those were views on how you would get revenue from your own ability to tax or on the availability of capital. We know that in our history indigenous communities have had less access to capital than non-indigenous communities. All these instruments were put in place with that in mind, but things have changed quickly in the last 20 years. For example, there have been demands—and I think one of the key pieces is the infrastructure institute—to have a centre of excellence for how infrastructure is built in communities and run by indigenous peoples. Also, there are some changes to the legislation that are the result of advocacy over that period of time and, very recently, in particular when it comes to the 350-plus communities that are scheduled. Not all those communities availed themselves of every instrument under this suite of legislation, but it does represent a real consensus among indigenous communities that have signed on as to what is needed to reform it and get more access to capital through some of the legislative changes. One of the important ones I would highlight, which we're still working on, is that we have a set of modern treaties and relationships and we need to make sure they have full access to all the levers that exist under these tools.

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Mr. John Aldag

04:51:05 p.m.
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Thank you. One of the things I noticed when we had the panel here on Monday was that many of the progressive councils or bands you mentioned that were drivers behind this were from British Columbia, an area I come from. I was really pleased to see that the first nations in British Columbia were at the forefront of this. We heard from one of the witnesses on Monday about how we need to have instruments that allow the nations to work at the speed of business. That was a theme that came up. One of the issues, as I understand it, is that the legislation is an important first piece but there are regulations will need to follow in order to fully implement the suite of tools that are available here. In that spirit of operating at the speed of business, could you give us some reassurance or a sense of what that looks like? Once we get the legislation in place, how long will it take to fully implement the other pieces that will be needed to allow the participating nations to avail themselves of the tools they have?

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Hon. Marc Miller

04:52:12 p.m.
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It's an excellent question. I'll answer it partially and then defer to Chris. We've seen that one of the biggest points of advocacy we hear from communities is the functional inability at times to have their bylaws enforced. In this piece of legislation, there is a suite of bylaws, for example, that will allow communities to have bylaws that have teeth and to therefore access the capital that is needed and have those relationships with communities that they don't have, or that their non-indigenous partners take for granted. That allows folks to move at the speed of business when it comes to some of the regulations when they are going to be fully in place. Do you want to speak a bit about that, Chris?

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Mr. Christopher Duschenes (Director General, Indigenous Institutions and Governance Modernization, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs)

04:53:02 p.m.
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Thank you, Mrs. Chair. Thank you, Minister Miller. The legislation does provide for the provisions for regulations to be created. One of the very interesting and big successes of the legislation is that since it was enacted, there has been more and more interest in joining into the legislation, which then results also in the need to create more regulations specific to those target groups that are expressing interest. Modern treaty holders and self-government communities are the ones that have expressed from the very beginning the most interest in getting in on the act. Creating those regulations is a long and complicated process. We have made great headway recently on those regulations. There will be more regulations created in the future. We hope that in relatively short order those regulations will be in place. That was precipitated by two first nations in your province, so the regulations will be very specific. One of the challenges on the regulatory front is that each time they are created, they have to be tailored very much to the situation at hand, so our colleagues at Justice have done yeoman's work with the province and with first nations in doing that tailoring to make sure it's legally sound and implementable, but it is a slow process.

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Mrs. Marilène Gill (Manicouagan, BQ)

04:54:33 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to thank the minister and his team. I have many questions, as always. The first question is about economic reconciliation for all. I asked the question last Monday. First nations can participate in the First Nations Fiscal Management Act, but not Métis and Inuit nations. We're not there yet. I was wondering where the difficulty lies in those cases. What is planned for the future? I'm not asking for a complete timeline, but I would like to know what the possibilities are for those nations over the next few months and years.

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Hon. Marc Miller

04:55:24 p.m.
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Given that participation isoptional, it will be up to those nations to decide. Historically, this type of legislation has stemmed from our relationship with first nations and not with the Inuit and the Métis. The federal government has only recently recognized the Métis. That means that their access to capital is even more recent. The Métis have their own financial institutions and know what they want to do. If they want to be part of the system, we will welcome them. As to the Inuit communities, I do not foresee any obstacles, apart from two or three challenges due to the necessary coordination between the legislation and modern treaties. There's nothing insurmountable there. Political factors could come into play. There is no legal obstacle stemming from the act as it stands.

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Mrs. Marilène Gill

04:56:42 p.m.
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Thank you. I also have a question about first nations. As you stated, participation is indeed optional. Up until now, 348 nations have participated, unless I am mistaken. You also spoke of hurdles that keep certain nations from participating or mean that they don't get the results they might have expected. Will the proposed amendments to the First Nations Fiscal Management Act eliminate the hurdles for the nations that are hesitant to participate or would like to do so, but are not able to? Once again, I do know that participation is optional.

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Hon. Marc Miller

04:57:38 p.m.
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I can only presume that that is indeed the case, obviously, because the nations are the ones who do the work and who have highlighted the existing hurdles. Out of the 348 nations, only 77 have had access to capital, which translates to about $1.6 billion. That is the clear objective of the act as is stands. My answer is therefore a simple yes.

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Mrs. Marilène Gill

04:58:02 p.m.
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Monday, I was told that the people who had been consulted are members of first nations that were already participating under the act. This leads me to believe that some nations did participate and did not receive any funding. We've got the nations that were consulted, but what about those that weren't. I am guessing that if those nations aren't participating, it's because of obstacles. Maybe the act isn't attractive to them either. I can't say, and it's not up to me to do that. However, I wonder why you didn't consult them, if you hope to offer them the best possible choice of development tools. My question is basically about the nations that aren't participating under the act.

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Hon. Marc Miller

04:58:39 p.m.
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There are a large number of communities listed in the schedule, but not all of them are. Some communities see the act as colonial. Some communities have another vision of their self-determination, and others are experiencing difficulties that keep them from participating. We will indeed have to keep up our efforts to be as inclusive as possible. I think the leaders of these organizations would be the first to say so.

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Mrs. Marilène Gill

04:59:20 p.m.
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Okay. These nations weren't consulted, but we still know that...

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Hon. Marc Miller

04:59:25 p.m.
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Not to my knowledge. But they might have been consulted through the band.

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Mrs. Marilène Gill

04:59:27 p.m.
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It would be interesting to consult them afterwards. However, I do understand that it is a huge undertaking and that some considerations, whether they be ideological or political, can mean certain communities will choose not to participate under the First Nations Fiscal Management Act. Obviously, that is also their choice. You said in your opening statement that certain hurdles have been eliminated. Setting aside those that are linked to the infrastructure project, what are the main hurdles that have been eliminated thanks to the amendments proposed in bill C‑45?

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Hon. Marc Miller

05:00:01 p.m.
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It's mainly hurdles in terms of flexibility. The act still had a lot of impediments that gave more authority to the federal government. Now the communities will have more flexibility, more room to manoeuver in seeking access to capital. More services will be provided. Institutions are taking a closer look at the consultations that we have done over the past few years and aim to make changes in keeping with the needs of communities who want better access to capital. Bill C‑45 gives rise to tremendous hope. The communities have been waiting for it for a long time now, and I would be thrilled if you could speed up its passing. I know that the Senate will also have a say, but we would be most grateful.

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Ms. Lori Idlout

05:02:12 p.m.
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[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:] Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister Miller, for your presence, and thank you to your colleagues, as well. I'm glad to see everyone here. The presentation you just provided was nice to listen to. You worked with first nations organizations in creating and implementing this bill. However, we all know we need other amendments to the bill. For instance, The Hill Times newspaper had an article regarding inadequate infrastructure due to a lack of proper funding in the amount of $349.2 billion. With the $349.2-billion envelope, and thinking of the laws or bills that will be amended, what other infrastructure will be created? How will this envelope of funding help reduce the gap in infrastructure?

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