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Context: Subject Matter of Bill C-45, An Act to amend the First Nations Fiscal Management Act (INAN) - May/1/23

04:01:25 p.m.
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Earlier, I saw the work that happened on the Salt River First Nation reserve and the beautiful building there. Every community in the Northwest Territories and every nation wants one now. It's modern and really nice. Of course, the reality is that we don't have a reserve in every community. We have only two small reserves in the Northwest Territories. How do we work this piece of legislation or the system to include modern treaty holders and self-governing nations who are looking at significant investment in the area of infrastructure over the next while?

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Mr. Ernie Daniels

04:02:13 p.m.
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That's a good question again. There was availability in part of the existing legislation to develop a regulation for self-governing first nations. This work is actually going on right now. I think we're getting closer to having that completed. That regulation, I believe, is in section 141. It's really close to being finalized. The other thing, especially for the Northwest Territories, is that these sets of amendments right now actually are looking at expanding eligibility. This would be for not-for-profit organizations that are providing services to first nations. Up in the Northwest Territories, we do have a few not-for-profit development corporations that are doing economic work in our communities. I could see that the amendments and the regulations that would need to be done shortly afterwards would do that. As it exists right now, a number of communities in the Northwest Territories have actually expressed interest in the act and the work we do under the act. As a matter of fact, this morning I have an invitation to go and speak in the Northwest Territories about how more communities in the Northwest Territories and more first nation bands can get involved in becoming part of this work under the FMA and actually end up financing different projects. I think there is a benefit. It's happening slowly. Hopefully, these sets of amendments will lead to more involvement and more economic activity from the first nations in the Northwest Territories.

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Mr. Michael McLeod

04:04:21 p.m.
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I have one last question. You've stated that this is optional legislation. We both know that there are some parts of the country that still can't take part, which is being worked on. Could you point to some reasons that first nations in the south who can opt in are choosing not to opt in? Would there be any reasons that stand out?

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Mr. Ernie Daniels

04:04:52 p.m.
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That's a good question. Believe it or not, in this day and age, with this legislation getting royal assent in 2005, there are still some first nations that are not aware of what we do under the act. Other than that, there are first nations that feel they don't have the revenues or the wherewithal to join this act. Once they find out, and once they see that other similar first nations have actually gone in and have actually borrowed, the interest happens. A few of them, some nations, like to work on their own. Some are just learning about it, and some are actually seeing the benefits of joining and want to join now. It's going to take some time. We have 342 scheduled to the act, which is a high number. It's really a good number in itself. If you grouped 342 municipalities together to take advantage of an act like this, they would gladly do so. I think we would like to see more first nations join, of course, but from my knowledge, from what I hear, those are some of the reasons why.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

04:06:21 p.m.
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Thank you very much, Mr. Daniels and Mr. McLeod, for your questions and your answers. We go next to the Bloc Québécois and Madam Gill for six minutes, please.

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Mrs. Marilène Gill (Manicouagan, BQ)

04:06:32 p.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd also like to thank all the witnesses who are with us today. We're having very interesting discussions on a number of fronts. Many of those present worked on the early version of Bill C‑45. I invite them to share their comments and answers with us, if they wish. Mr. Daniels, you talked about one of the major amendments to the First Nations Fiscal Management Act, the expansion of the meaning of “borrowing member”. I'd like to know why that meaning was limited in the first place. Was it simply because the act was new? Also, while Bill C‑45 will broaden that meaning, do you think it's broad enough or could it be broadened even further?

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Mr. Ernie Daniels

04:07:49 p.m.
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I believe there will be an opportunity to open up more to other indigenous groups, such as Inuit and Métis. I think that's the next logical step in this. Right now, I do believe that getting the not-for-profit organizations that are providing services to communities will definitely be beneficial. For example, in B.C., the First Nations Health Authority would like to undertake an infrastructure program. They may be already doing that, but there's a need for health centres all across the province. I can see that being the same for other provinces in the country as well. In some cases, another possible group that could access, or be eligible later on, would be first nations collaborating together on a single project, operating from a not-for-profit basis, of course. I'd like to see that myself. I think that the first nation groups were the first groups that actually started working on legislation like this. It started in B.C., and Harold or Manny could probably answer that a bit better than I can because I came in later. I came in in 2011, and they were there from the start.

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Mrs. Marilène Gill

04:09:34 p.m.
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Indeed, this includes Inuit and possibly Métis. Similarly, why was no consideration given to including other indigenous groups in the definition of “borrowing member”? Perhaps they were, but I wasn't involved in the initial discussions. Why is this definition not further broadened through Bill C‑45?

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Mr. Ernie Daniels

04:10:07 p.m.
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That's very good question again. I think that when we start amendments, it takes a lot of time and effort to get things moving forward. We would like to see the eligibility expanded to Inuit and Métis, but we have to work with our counterparts at the federal government, which is CIRNAC in this case. Sometimes amendments go forward that they want to support. Also, they could have reasons why we're not working on Métis and Inuit right now. Like I say, I am positive that will be forthcoming. I'm sure about that. I will leave my comments at that.

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Mrs. Marilène Gill

04:11:06 p.m.
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I know we're running out of time, so this may be my last question. It may overlap with previous questions. I'd like to know whether expanding the definition of “borrowing member” would put pressure on the First Nations Finance Authority itself, since it could force it to expand its service delivery. At the same time, it obviously increases the possibility of different groups and different nations borrowing funds. Would that put pressure on the authority itself, or will you receive additional funding to help you in your mission? Furthermore, could there be increased competition so that the pie would be shared among more people rather than among the members of the same group, as was the case before? This isn't an opinion; I'm really asking in good faith.

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Mr. Ernie Daniels

04:12:21 p.m.
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Thank you for that question. First of all, the act is a voluntary act. Those organizations would request to work under the act. With regard to competition or more lending groups, I would imagine you're talking about sharing the pie. I always go back to letting the choice be with the first nations or the entity that's borrowing to see what type of financing would be most suitable for them. I think there is a lot to go around. With first nations, we mentioned a $349.2-billion infrastructure gap. I can imagine that gap is pretty big for Inuit and Métis as well. I was at a conference a few weeks ago, and I heard that the Inuit infrastructure gap is about $60 billion.

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The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jamie Schmale)

04:13:38 p.m.
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I'm going to have to stop you there, Mr. Daniels. I'm sorry, Madam Gill. I appreciate the questions, but we have run a bit over time. Certainly, Ernie, you're in the hot seat today. Next up is Lori Idlout from the NDP for six minutes.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

04:13:52 p.m.
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[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:] Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all of the witnesses for your testimonies. You testimonies are very important. First of all, to each of the witnesses, can you share your thoughts on Bill C-45? It is simultaneously being created and the federal government is codeveloping this act with you. I'd like to understand a bit more about the process. Was it good for you? Was it satisfactory for you? The other question I would like to ask you is whether you would want to make further amendments to the content of the Bill C-45. Each of you can respond.

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The Chair (Mrs. Jenica Atwin (Fredericton, Lib.))

04:15:04 p.m.
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That's for whomever would like to start.

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Mr. Harold Calla

04:15:08 p.m.
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It's Harold. If I may, I will start. I look at the legislation as a living piece of legislation. It's always going to be amended to reflect the current circumstances of the day. We've been working on these particular amendments for quite some time. Did we get everything we wanted? We never get everything we want, Lori, but we got a lot of what we wanted. We're happy with what we got and want to see it come into place. We understand and respect that there is a commitment for ongoing dialogue on how you might improve this legislation, expand its scope and reach all corners of the indigenous community in Canada. We look forward to those opportunities. I think what we've proven is that the concept we developed works. We now have this number of first nations participating. There's a lot of money being collected in local revenues now, through the tax commission. Ernie talks about $1.8 billion. All of these things have made a dramatic impact in communities, in terms of community infrastructure and the buildings they have. We've now realized, through the process, that we need to expand the reach to first nations organizations, non-profits and tribal councils, because that's what they wanted. We identified—to get the bill moving and started—that it would be Indian Act bands. We agreed to that. However, we now understand the demand is much more significant than that, and we're prepared to respond to that. Yes, we want to be welcomed back at some point, hopefully, in the near future to consider further amendments to this act, as the circumstances demand, but we're happy with what we have today. Thank you.

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The Chair

04:17:05 p.m.
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Go ahead, Mr. Claxton or Mr. Calla.

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Mr. Jason Calla (Technical Team, First Nations Infrastructure Institute)

04:17:11 p.m.
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Good afternoon, everyone. In terms of the amendments with respect to the First Nations Infrastructure Institute, it was a good constructive process. We appreciated the working relationship we developed with the people at CIRNAC to develop the amendments. We are fortunate to have a development board led by Allan Claxton and other leaders from across Canada who provided leadership and guidance to the amendments based on their years of experience in leadership and administration with projects in indigenous communities. When we got a chance to see the draft legislation, we had a good technical team discussion to review it and propose some refinements. No substantive issues were missing. Again, it's a new initiative. I'm sure that, as we work with the legislation, we'll find ways over time to improve it, but we were happy to report that the substantive things we were hoping for are in the bill, and we have no further changes proposed. Thank you.

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Mr. Clarence T. (Manny) Jules

04:18:19 p.m.
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Thank you very much. I think that, when we first started doing our work, it was a question of developing trust, not only with first nations, but ultimately with the federal government that we had the wherewithal to be able to have the knowledge to create legislation out of nothing. When I first started doing this work in the 1980s, it was thought that the taxation amendments only applied to a small number of communities, and through the second phase—I would call it—in 2005, we had to develop trust amongst first nations right across the country. This led to a heated debate at the Assembly of First Nations conference, and we've overcome those debates internally with first nations. Now we are ready to expand the catch, if you will, to include Inuit and Métis, and those are critically important for the future, because it's my belief that, without all indigenous people working together, none of us will be free of colonialism. When I think about the Métis in particular, there's one individual who worked for me a while ago, Garry Ladouceur. He was instrumental in creating the Metis Settlements Act in Alberta, and that's one particular piece of work that we monitor as a tax commission, because what happens in those communities has an impact on first nation communities. Also, in embracing the Métis, we're embracing the history of this country in all of its complexity. When you look to the far north and the Inuit, there are a lot of issues that I feel we could have been involved in such as the jet fuel contamination of the water systems and the like. In my meeting with you, Lori, we talked about the names and thought about our common history of being notified that your name is now a number. As I told you at that meeting, my number is 6880032401. There's a lot in common that we have to overcome collectively as indigenous people in this country, and what that brings us is the strength to be able to overcome all of the hurdles that are going to face us in the future. Indeed, when we start to deal with those areas, it means that our place in this country and in this federation will be strengthened.

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The Chair

04:21:25 p.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Jules Thank you, Ms. Idlout. We'll now move to our second round, and we'll begin with Mr. Schmale for five minutes.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

04:21:30 p.m.
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Thank you very much, Chair. It's good to have you back. I appreciate the testimony we're hearing from everyone today and their words about this piece of legislation. I'd like to pick up on something and maybe direct this question to Harold Calla, or I can open it to the field as well. Ernie Daniels was talking earlier about the ability to use monetization to finance and build a whole bunch of infrastructure. It could be a whole range, including houses, for example, which we all know are deeply important to every community, indigenous and non-indigenous, at the moment. In addition to the housing piece of this puzzle, what about the economic reconciliation that has to be included in this conversation in order to set the stage for that growth to maintain and grow that housing and also the community? How important is economic reconciliation?

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