(Pursuant to the order adopted by the Senate on December 7, 2021, to receive a Minister of the Crown, the Honourable David Lametti, P.C., M.P., Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, appeared before honourable senators during Question Period.)

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, we welcome today the Honourable David Lametti, P.C., M.P., Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, to ask questions relating to his ministerial responsibilities.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the Senate on December 7, 2021, senators do not need to stand. Questions are limited to one minute and responses to one-and-a-half minutes. The reading clerk will stand 10 seconds before the expiry of these times. Question Period will last one hour.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, the time for Question Period has expired.

I know all senators will want to join me in thanking Minister Lametti for being with us today. Thank you, minister. We look forward to seeing you again.

(At 4 p.m., pursuant to the order adopted by the Senate on September 21, 2022, the Senate adjourned until 2 p.m., tomorrow.)

Hon. David Lametti, P.C., M.P., Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada: Thank you, senator, for this important question.

Naturally, the act provided for a study. We have started the process for this parliamentary study with a former deputy minister who will look into several issues, including the one you raised, medical cannabis, and the potential circumvention of the regulations for other purposes.

He will be addressing that issue and investigating it. We are awaiting his report. I can tell you that I will examine and read this report carefully to find the answer to that question.

The Hon. the Speaker: Senator Plett, thank you. Minister Lametti, please go ahead.

Hon. Brian Francis: Minister Lametti, prior to the coming into force of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act in June 2021, the Standing Senate Committee on Indigenous Peoples heard from many witnesses who were critical of the federal consultation process.

Could you tell us what steps you and your department have taken in the last year to ensure that Indigenous people have the capacity to adequately and meaningfully participate in the co‑development of upcoming legislation as well as the action plan? I also want to know whether you have a plan to increase the use of mediation with Indigenous communities to prevent and resolve disputes and avoid the use of costly and time-consuming litigation.

Hon. David Lametti, P.C., M.P., Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada: Thank you for that question, senator, and I share the place from which that question comes.

As a government, we have committed to implementing the Calls to Action of the TRC. You have cited one of them. That one will require, in particular, work with the Minister of Health as we move forward, as well as cooperation with the provinces, which administer the criminal justice system across Canada as part of their constitutional responsibilities.

But I commit to being an active participant in the implementation of that as we move forward.

I will be honest that, for the time being, my goal is to get Bill C-5 over the finish line, which also responds to a TRC Call to Action regarding the overrepresentation of Indigenous people in the criminal justice system, to take one measure.

There are other measures that need to be taken, and I strongly feel that the question of fetal alcohol spectrum disorder will also be something that comes up both in the context of our elaboration of an Indigenous justice strategy and a Black justice strategy, and then in concert with the Minister of Health we can move forward.

Hon. David Lametti, P.C., M.P., Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada: Thank you, senator. As you will recall from my previous exchange, one of the main reasons is because we have more places to fill. We have created 116 new judicial positions since 2017. We created 27 in the last budget, plus 2 prothonotary positions.

We are working hard, and the JACs are working hard. We replace and replenish the JACs every couple of years, as is provided for in the system. We do that diligently. I appoint judges at a pretty rigorous and even pace, and we do that after a consultation process. I think you will hear positive feedback from across Canada with respect to the judges we’ve appointed.

I work hard with the bar associations across Canada and with other legal groups to encourage people to apply and to encourage people to apply to the JACs when those positions become open. The results speak for themselves: Since 2016, 55% of our appointments have been women, 12% have been visible minorities, 6% identify as LGBTQ2+ and 4% are Indigenous. Of them, 32% are functionally bilingual and another 13% can read in both languages. That’s more than some in our house.

The system is working well. We’ve built trust in the system, not only with judges but also with members of the communities that we’re targeting.

Hon. David Lametti, P.C., M.P., Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada: Thank you, senator. That’s an important question, and one that has often been lost in the debate on Bill C-5.

We have undertaken the development of an Indigenous justice strategy. Again, this process has been launched, if you will, and much of it will be determined and shaped by Indigenous peoples across Canada. That process is moving. We’ve also launched the development of a Black justice strategy, in which we will be working with experts and community leadership groups across Canada in order to address the root causes that you have cited.

For Indigenous people, we have funded greater investments in Gladue reports on sentencing — the pre-sentencing reports — to get better coverage and better quality across Canada for Gladue reports. With respect to Black and racialized peoples, we have also begun the pilot project: Impact of Race and Culture Assessments, or IRCAs. These function like Gladue reports. It is an idea that originated in Nova Scotia but was seized upon by experts in Toronto, so those are the two jurisdictions where the pilot project is beginning.

In the meantime — until we elaborate upon those larger strategies with the collaboration and consultation of those communities in question — we are looking at other measures to try to help address the root causes of overincarceration and try to weed out systemic discrimination.

(Pursuant to the order adopted by the Senate on December 7, 2021, to receive a Minister of the Crown, the Honourable David Lametti, P.C., M.P., Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, appeared before honourable senators during Question Period.)

Hon. David Lametti, P.C., M.P., Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada: Thank you, senator, for that question, even though I disagree with the way in which it characterizes the issue. It will always be the case that serious crimes will attract serious penalties and that public security is our number one concern.

What we are doing, honourable senator, is making sure that where there is no threat to public security — and a conditional sentence order is only available when there is no threat to public security and the sentence that would be given would be less than two years. These are cases where incarceration is not the best way forward.

I would point you to recent comments by Justice Michael Moldaver — one of the leading law thinkers in Canada and a recently retired justice on the Supreme Court of Canada — who said that our criminal justice system needs to concentrate its resources on serious crime and should not be turning to incarceration where it is not the best way forward, either for the victim or for society at large.

Again, while you cite serious crimes, where those crimes are serious — and where the situation and circumstances were serious — those will always attract serious penalties. What we are doing here is allowing flexibility for a problem, such as a problematic addiction or another social challenge, to be addressed directly as opposed to using incarceration as a means to address that type of social problem.

To repeat, serious crimes will always carry serious sentences and conditional sentence orders are only available where there is no threat to public security.

Hon. David Lametti, P.C., M.P., Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada: Not at all, senator. Obviously, the inquiry and the parliamentary review committee are part of the Emergencies Act process. They are required under the act itself. Clearly, we want to provide both with enough information to ensure that they can make their decisions and be in a position to review the decision made by cabinet.

Thanks to Justice Rouleau’s commission, other measures will be put in place to protect sensitive documents. The government was therefore comfortable with the decision to partially waive cabinet confidence privilege.

In both cases, solicitor-client privilege was not asserted because it’s a situation where a government can’t be bound at a future time, and that’s a quasi-constitutional right declared fundamental by the Supreme Court.

[English]

Hon. Denise Batters: Minister Lametti, recently, federal judicial vacancies have ballooned to an all-time high on your watch. On September 1, there were a record 91 judicial vacancies. As of October 1, there are still 89.

The Supreme Court of Canada’s R. v. Jordan decision means that people charged with serious crimes can go free because of excessive court delays. As the Minister of Justice, you have the sole and complete control over one simple solution to that problem: Appoint more judges and appoint them now.

When I asked you about this in 2021, you blamed the election. Well, we didn’t have one of those last summer. Before that, you blamed empty judicial advisory committees, but guess what? You’re responsible for appointing those too. Victims wait months and years for justice while courtrooms sit empty.

Your government has been in power for seven years, and your excuses have worn thin. After almost four years as Minister of Justice, why are you still failing to fulfill the most basic mandate of your job?

Hon. Marty Klyne: Minister Lametti, with Bill C-5, the government is moving away from mandatory minimum penalties for some crimes, as a reflection of those mandatory minimum penalties disproportionately affecting Indigenous and racialized populations. This is part of the federal government’s efforts to address systemic racism in the criminal justice system.

However, as we know, this bill was not conceived to address the economic and social factors that create the conditions that lead to overrepresentation of those groups in the system in the first place. Can you tell us what will be done by the federal government — and within your department specifically — to address those root causes?

Hon. David Lametti, P.C., M.P., Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada: Thank you, senator. That is a very important question.

First of all, the offences targeted are offences for which Indigenous peoples, racialized individuals and members of the Black community are overrepresented. Whenever possible, we have chosen offences that disproportionately affect those communities. Those are the offences being targeted here.

At the same time, we want to build trust in the system. After more than 10 years of tough-on-crime rhetoric from the Harper government and its strategy that was a complete failure, a certain segment of the population still needs to be convinced. By passing this legislation, we will build trust, because the sky is not going to fall, and Indigenous people and members of the Black community will be less disproportionately affected in our justice system. This will help resolve the situation in the justice system, to some extent.

That’s where we are right now.

Third, if we want to tackle the root causes of systemic racism, why should we give judges who look like you or me additional discretion? It would be better not to give —

Hon. David Lametti, P.C., M.P., Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada: Thank you. That is an important question. I think everyone in this room shares the sentiments you have brought forward.

We strongly condemn the actions of the Iranian government. We strongly condemn the actions of the IRGC and the impacts it has had, not just on Iranians and particularly Iranian women, but on Canadians as well with the downing of PS752.

As a government, we are looking at that situation. We have condemned all of those actions in the strongest possible terms, and we are keeping all of our options open as we study how best to move forward.

I can assure Canadians, Iranian-Canadians and Iranians, as well as all of you, that we are united in the sentiment of condemnation of the government and of that group. We will continue to use every means at our disposal in order to fight that.