SoVote

May/2/23 7:44:43 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I feel like saying that we have already put all the ideas out there. We have the recommendations that resulted from the consultations. We listened to all the witnesses who told their stories and gave ideas to the commission. We already have all that information. Of course, we may run into difficulties, but I think that this is more a matter of will than a matter of means.

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Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)

May/2/23 7:45:28 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, one of the criticisms the NDP is talking about is the lack of funding for housing. It is $4 billion over seven years when we know there is a huge housing crisis. My hon. colleague from Nunavut has spoken many times about how women are forced to live in violence because they have nowhere else to go. I am wondering if my colleague would agree that more needs to be invested in housing and that the government has really failed in the federal budget on urban and rural indigenous housing initiatives.

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Mrs. Marilène Gill

May/2/23 7:46:08 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, when people are experiencing violence, not having a home and not being able to leave keeps them in that cycle of violence. Obviously there has to be more funding and solutions to provide housing for women. We are talking about women, but I believe my colleague from Winnipeg Centre would agree that this affects the whole community. Children are also affected when they are in crowded living conditions, and every aspect of life is affected. Housing really is a key issue. The Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs studied this issue and discussed it with the minister. We realized he means well, but at the same time, there was an admission during the committee that the shortfall would never be eliminated. There is already a shortage, and there will be no way to meet growing demand. These populations are very young, and they need safe places to live. There is not enough money and not enough housing being built. We need concrete measures.

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Hon. Marc Miller (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Lib.)

May/2/23 7:47:25 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I will be splitting my time with the member for Oakville North—Burlington. I want to acknowledge, as many have, that we are meeting here today on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. May 5, Friday, is Red Dress Day, the national day of awareness to honour and remember the survivors of the ongoing national crisis of violence against indigenous women and girls and 2SLGBTQI+ people. The red dresses displayed or worn each year on Red Dress Day are a visual reminder of the first nations, Inuit and Métis women and girls, and two-spirit and gender-diverse people who make up a vastly disproportionate number of victims of violence in Canada. This day also speaks to the collective responsibility we share as governments and citizens to work together to address the root causes of the crisis, to protect indigenous women and girls and 2SLGBTQI+ people, and to ensure they are safe across Canada. It is timely that we are currently waiting for the results of a study that will provide guidance on the feasibility of searching the Prairie Green Landfill for the remains of women. I thank families, community leadership and the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs for overseeing this work, as well as the advocacy of the member for Winnipeg Centre. The discovery of the remains found at the Brady Road landfill recently in Winnipeg and the recent deaths of other indigenous women have made it terribly clear that we must continue to take action. At the federal level, our work is guided by the federal pathway to address missing and murdered indigenous women, girls and 2SLGBTQQIA+ people, which is the government's contribution to the national action plan and was released on June 3, 2021. The pathway is anchored in principles directly related to the principles for change outlined in the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which begin with respect for the human rights of indigenous women and girls. The principles also include acknowledging the leadership of women and 2SLGBTQI+ people and indigenous survivors in developing and implementing local self-determined, indigenous-led solutions and services. For example, the 2021 budget included $2.2 billion for initiatives related to missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and LGBTQ individuals. This includes funding for the support for the wellbeing of families of survivors of missing and murdered indigenous women, girls and 2SLGBTQQIA+ people contribution program, the supporting indigenous women's and 2SLGBTQQIA+ organizations program, and the cultural spaces in indigenous communities program, which has enabled projects such as the construction of several safe and secure spaces across the country. These spaces will serve as safe spaces for community members to pass on their traditional knowledge and culture through various programs, including language revitalization programs. Elders and speakers will be able to do so in this safe space. I was in Val-d'Or on Monday to take part in the announcement of the much-needed expansion of the Val-d'Or Native Friendship Centre. This $60-million expansion will provide a safe space and accommodations for the 9,000 people who travel to Val-d'Or each year for medical services and who do not want to stay in a motel for safety reasons, including the many Cree and Algonquin people living in Val-d'Or. This initiative will save lives. With budget 2023, our government is reinforcing and expanding our commitment to MMIWG. It proposes an additional $125 million over six years, followed by $20 million ongoing, to put toward measures for implementing the national action plan. This includes, among other things, $1.6 million over the next two years to support the creation of an indigenous and human rights ombudsperson. In January, I announced the appointment of Jennifer Moore Rattray as the minister's special representative; she will provide recommendations on call to justice 1.7 through engagement with families, survivors, partners and organizations. In budget 2023, we also propose $2.6 million over three years starting in 2023-24 to support the National Family and Survivors Circle, which has been indispensable for this conversation. At the federal-provincial-territorial-indigenous table on missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, we will prioritize the launch of a red dress alert to notify the public when an indigenous woman or two-spirit person goes missing. Finally, this Friday, on Red Dress Day, our government will remain unwavering in its commitment to continuing its engagement and collaboration with families and survivors, indigenous partners, and provincial and territorial governments to address this violence and end the crisis.

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Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)

May/2/23 7:52:20 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague spoke about all this money. I am going to mention some of that money. Of $724.1 million that was issued in the 2020 budget, only 5% has been spent. Meanwhile, women are being murdered and going missing. We are dying on the streets, and they are throwing us in landfills. Although I was very pleased that there was support given for searching, the current government has failed to invest in keeping us alive, in real time. The minister talks about all this money: $1.6 million over six years. He knows very well that this funding is completely inadequate. I will tell members how I know that; it is because we continue to go missing and be murdered. The government, in real time, is cutting $150 million for women's shelters in September because it was emergency support given during the pandemic. I will tell members something. Gender-based violence was a crisis before the pandemic, and it has increased since the pandemic. The government should not be cutting back resources from shelters; it needs to be increasing these resources. We have a right to be safe, and we have a right to justice. The time for waiting for the government to figure it out is over. When is the minister going to get that money out the door? How is he going to ensure that women who are survivors of violence, family members of murdered and missing indigenous women and girls, trans women and nonconforming women who are impacted by this violence are actually going to be able to lead these discussions?

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Hon. Marc Miller

May/2/23 7:54:42 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, again, as easy as it is to stand here in this place and talk about historic sums that have been invested, it is equally easy to stand up and dismiss them. I think the member is accurate on a very important point. No one in the House should be talking about success until every woman and child and 2SLGBTQ person who is indigenous is safe in this country. This tragedy is indeed ongoing. I want to address one point, which is the shelters. They need to get out faster, and I will absolutely concede that. Half of the money that she spoke about is dedicated to the continuing operation of these shelters, and the other half dedicated to creating shelters across the country outside of the “reserves” reality. This is indispensable in her riding, and she knows it. It exists in my riding in downtown Montreal. That need is crying to us, and we cannot get it out fast enough. We are looking forward to some announcements in the very near future to make sure that people have those shelters available to them. It is never right to ask for patience, because people are going missing every day, but I do expect a number of those announcements to be coming out in the very short term.

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Mr. Alex Ruff (Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, CPC)

May/2/23 7:55:55 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I am fortunate enough to represent two first nations in my riding, Saugeen First Nation and Chippewas of Nawash Unceded First Nation. I reached out to them to ask them if they had any questions for the government. They posed two questions that they would like some clarity on. One is really more of a comment. The first one is to get an update on where the government is on all the recommendations that were made in the murdered and missing women and girls report. They would just like an update on whether the government is fully committed to actioning on all of them. Second, the chief shared with me that they had been in great consultation, just even today, I believe, with the local police detachment. Obviously, when we are dealing with this very tragic and important issue, that relationship needs to exist between first nations and their local law enforcement to help find these missing women and girls before they end up in a tragic situation. The chief highlighted to me that more education is needed. Is the government committed to providing the necessary resources needed to help educate law enforcement and Canadians in general about this very important subject?

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Hon. Marc Miller

May/2/23 7:57:20 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, clearly, there is a need for education. We know this from the clear record of failure of enforcement bodies across this country to serve indigenous peoples and protect them, for stronger reasons, that is still going on in this country. Absolutely, there is a need to continue that education, cultural sensitivity training and engagement with the community. There is a need to understand that reality and put in the same efforts that they put in with everyone else when they are looking for someone who goes missing. It is the most basic of requirements that we would ask for. We still see those forces failing. There are requirements for the guidance from the federal government, as well as our provincial counterparts. As for the calls to justice in the final report on MMIWG, what we have heard very clearly is that we need some form of accountability. That is why I moved, in January, to appoint Jennifer Moore Rattray to give us recommendations on an ombudsperson. Therefore, we can have a third party who is able to look at what the government is doing, what it is not doing and what it can do faster to make sure that we are properly responding to the calls to justice. I can stand here all day and talk to people, but, really, that level of trust is often missing toward people like me and the government. We need a third party to actually help us move along the way so that we can continue to implement those calls to justice, which are systemic in nature and require a thoughtful process as to how they actually get put into place.

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Ms. Pam Damoff (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety, Lib.)

May/2/23 7:58:53 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, Friday is Red Dress Day, a devastating and unacceptable reality in Canada also known as the National Day of Awareness for Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls and Two-Spirit People. Everyone has the right to safety and to live free from violence. All families deserve to know that if a loved one goes missing, every effort will be made to find them. I want to thank the member for Winnipeg Centre, and I commit to working closely with her on finding justice for indigenous women, girls and two-spirit people, particularly around creating a red dress alert. The release of the final report of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls prompted a period of deep reflection, and urgent action is required. In June 2021, the government released its pathway, which is aligned with the broader national action plan. We must acknowledge colonialism's impact on the disproportionate representation of indigenous peoples in the criminal justice system. Indigenous women continue to be the fastest-growing prison population in Canada, and almost half of all federally sentenced women are indigenous. Most of the women whom I have visited in several women's prisons are there because of poverty, addiction, abuse, mental illness and intergenerational trauma. Recently, Correctional Services appointed a deputy commissioner for indigenous corrections. This was a direct response to call to justice 5.23. Incarceration has a devastating impact on women and their children. If a woman is incarcerated, her child has a 25% chance of being convicted in adulthood. This is unacceptable. Corrections has also undertaken an expansion of the mother-child program at institutions for women offenders. We must ensure safe spaces for indigenous women. Recently, I visited Saskatoon and helped announce an 18-bed transitional housing project in partnership with the Saskatoon Tribal Council and all levels of government. At the Thunder Woman Healing Lodge Society in Toronto, I have worked with Patti Pettigrew, who envisions a facility to support indigenous women. However, we need more of these initiatives. Indigenous peoples have long been mistreated by law enforcement, going back to the time of residential schools, when the RCMP were used to forcibly remove children from their families. We know that we need to do more for reform. Our government introduced Bill C-20, which would enact a new stand-alone statute to provide an external review regime of oversight called the public complaints and review commission for both the RCMP and CBSA. The RCMP is making progress on its first nations, Inuit and Métis recruitment strategy. This strategy is led through an indigenous lens, and it examines how systemic barriers can be further mitigated to ensure diverse and inclusive recruitment. Community-led and culturally sensitive approaches to community safety must be at the forefront. The government is co-developing first nations policing legislation with the Assembly of First Nations and first nations partners to recognize first nations policing as an essential service. A red dress alert would notify the public when an indigenous woman, girl or two-spirit person went missing. We must put women, girls and two-spirit people, along with survivors, at the centre of the development. The member for Winnipeg Centre and I recently met with the Minister of Emergency Preparedness to determine next steps. In budget 2023, our government announced investments of $2.5 million over the next five years to establish a federal-provincial-territorial-indigenous table, providing a forum to discuss and act on the red dress alert and other initiatives. The budget also announced a $2.6-million investment over three years to support the National Family and Survivors Circle in keeping families and survivors at the centre of the implementation of the national action plan and federal pathway. When I was in British Columbia recently, I spoke with grassroots female advocates from You Empowered Strong and others in the Okanagan. They talked about their efforts in their communities to engage the public's assistance in their search for loved ones. The government must support those efforts, and a red dress alert would send a strong signal to Canadians and to indigenous peoples that we value the lives of indigenous women, girls and two-spirit people. I not only give my personal commitment, but I know that the government is also committed to working with indigenous partners, communities, and provinces and territories while centring survivors and their families for the success of a red dress initiative. We cannot stand by while first nations, Inuit and Métis women, girls and two-spirit people go missing. If they do, every effort must be made to find them. Their lives matter, and we must urgently act for change.

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Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)

May/2/23 8:03:59 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I would agree with my hon. colleague that we do need justice reform. I appreciated her mention of the incarceration rate of indigenous women in prisons and its impact on family. I did have the privilege to meet with her and the minister the other day about a red dress alert. Very central to our conversation was the need to centre advocates, women, family members and survivors of violence in the discussion to lead the way, in terms of implementing a red dress alert. However, I cannot stress enough that we do not have time to talk. We need the political will to get this red dress alert in place as soon as possible. Just in the past couple of days, we have seen the loss of an eight-year-old girl and another young woman from Sandy Bay Ojibway First Nation. I send my condolences to the Roulette family. We are not disposable in this country, and should we go missing, we must be found urgently. We know the systems are in place. We know the system to do this is the same system that would be used for amber alerts and for weather alerts. I want to ask my hon. colleague how committed her government is to getting this red dress alert put in place quickly. We know that everything is in place. It just takes political will, so I would like to give that question to my colleague.

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Ms. Pam Damoff

May/2/23 8:05:47 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I just want to thank the hon. member. I do not know how she is standing here tonight as an indigenous woman listening to the debate, answering questions and not getting emotional like I am. We have talked many times about the fact that I am a white woman and that if I went missing, people would look for me and my family would be listened to. In the case of the hon. member for Winnipeg Centre, she does not live with that privilege, and that is a deep flaw in our country. I know the Minister of Emergency Preparedness and I have agreed to go to Winnipeg, and the member has agreed to organize a meeting with advocates, survivors and families so that we can ensure they are at the centre of this. We also know that implementing the red dress alert requires the provinces and territories to be part of it, because they are the ones that actually implement the alerts, but she is absolutely right that it takes political will, and with her advocacy and with support from those in the government, I am confident we can get this done and we must get this done. I just want to thank the member for being such a strong, fierce and incredible woman.

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Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)

May/2/23 8:07:16 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I believe that in her heart, the member really wants to move the issues forward. Most recently, with the Coalition on Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women and Girls in B.C., in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside, our community has been talking about this issue. In fact, it was in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside where the first memorial march was led back in the day, so many years ago, when I was a community legal advocate. Fewer than 20 people showed up for that march, and now we see it across the country. That being said, here are some of the issues people raised at that meeting. They are calling for the red dress alert to be implemented, of course, but beyond that they also want to see a national summit led and organized by indigenous women, and they want to see the continued conversation about a missing persons database. These are some of the things that need to be done, and they need to be done now. In addition, the coalition has been calling for government support to fund community people who are out there looking for missing loved ones. So often, they are just doing that work all on their own without any support anywhere. My question for the member is this: Will the government undertake to ensure that the ideas and strategies coming from indigenous organizations, like the Coalition on Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women and Girls in B.C., and family members are supported? Will it actually fund those initiatives and implement them?

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Ms. Pam Damoff

May/2/23 8:08:57 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, the women I met with in the Okanagan talked about their efforts of going out themselves to find missing loved ones without the support of police or the government, which is absolutely incredible. I will commit to the hon. member that I will ensure those recommendations are shared with the minister responsible. I will continue to work with members on all sides of the House to ensure that there is urgent action taken on this issue.

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Hon. Dan Vandal (Minister of Northern Affairs, Minister responsible for Prairies Economic Development Canada and Minister responsible for the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency, Lib.)

May/2/23 8:09:40 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I want to first say that I will be sharing my time with the member for Edmonton Griesbach. This is the second consecutive year in which we have dedicated a take-note debate to the ongoing national crisis of missing and murdered indigenous women, girls and 2SLGBTQI+ people. The timing of this debate coincides with the annual national day of awareness, which is this Friday, May 5, commonly known as Red Dress Day. I would like to share with this House the story of how a red dress became such a potent and meaningful symbol. The individual I want to highlight is an artist with deep roots in my hometown of Winnipeg who shares a proud Métis heritage, Jaime Black. Jaime learned about the tragedy of the missing and murdered from Jo-Ann Episkenew, a Métis writer from Manitoba. She was also inspired in part by the image of a red dress on the cover of The Book of Jessica by Linda Griffiths and Maria Campbell. From this knowledge and inspiration, Jaime proposed an idea to the University of Winnipeg's Institute for Women's and Gender Studies, an installation of red dresses. Through her work, Jaime was also told by an indigenous friend that red is the only colour spirits can see. On Red Dress Day, thousands of families, indigenous and non- indigenous, will feel closer to the memory and spirit of someone they have lost to this violence. This is more than just a day to hang up a red dress to remind us of those who have been murdered or are still missing. It is a day that calls for action to address the appalling circumstances that have allowed, and continue to allow, so many indigenous women, girls and two-spirit people to be murdered or disappear. The first exhibition of Jaime Black's installation was at the University of Manitoba in 2011. Later that year, it was installed in the Manitoba legislature. In 2014, it became part of the permanent installation at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights. Much has changed since 2011, when a young Winnipeg artist conceived the idea of displaying a red dress to draw public attention to the plight of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, a cause that has expanded to include 2SLGBTQI+ people. We know the work is very far from being done. Indigenous women, girls and two-spirit people are still very much in danger. Each and every year, there are more names added to the list of the murdered and missing. I am acutely aware of this. In my hometown of Winnipeg, where I come from, the remains of murdered indigenous women have been found in landfills a shocking number of times. It has to stop. I am thinking of the ongoing trauma, the scars that still linger today. Every story, every disappearance, every violent end re-traumatizes our community, our friends, our neighbours. This has to stop. As a Manitoban, Métis, father and grandfather of indigenous women and girls, I am deeply concerned. It is clear that we have a lot more work to do. As members of the House, all of us are privileged to be able to rise today and add our voices to the chorus demanding that action be taken. I acknowledge those who have worked tirelessly to advance awareness of this ongoing Canadian tragedy, including one Winnipeg artist who turned a red dress into a widely recognized symbol of the urgent need to make the world safer for indigenous women, girls and two-spirit people.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

May/2/23 8:14:52 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, the minister plays an important role as the Minister of Northern Affairs in determining whether resource extraction will be approved in Nunavut, impacting many Inuit communities. I want to ask the minister if he has read the report by the Standing Committee on the Status of Women from its study of violence against indigenous women and girls in the context of resource development and what his response is to make sure indigenous women are being protected, especially knowing that the resource sector is known to have more frequent cases in making indigenous women, girls and two-spirit people in the category of being lost through MMIWG.

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Hon. Dan Vandal

May/2/23 8:16:02 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her hard work, dedication and advocacy toward this very important cause throughout her life. We know resource development is an important part of Canadian history and Canadian society, and it will be an important part of the future of Canada, likely even more so in the north. It is absolutely imperative that the rights of all indigenous people and the rights of indigenous women and girls be respected and not be compromised through any of that activity. I have confidence that, working together with the member for Nunavut, the territorial governments, the provincial governments and industry, we can do better. That is something that is a mandate for all of us. We need to work with absolutely everybody in our society to make sure we do better.

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Ms. Sylvie Bérubé (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, BQ)

May/2/23 8:17:35 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague, the Minister of Northern Affairs, for his speech. Earlier, his colleague spoke about government investments. What is happening with the recommendations from the report of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls? In my riding, women and girls are still going missing. We must protect them and ensure their survival. We also need to listen to what communities are saying about their needs. We must provide safe air transportation for health care services in northern Quebec. We have to act quickly on behalf of women and girls who must be able to live safely. How can the government implement these actions?

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Hon. Dan Vandal

May/2/23 8:18:20 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for that excellent question. Everyone knows that reconciliation with indigenous peoples and environmental protection have been key priorities for our government since it was elected in 2015. Since then, we have invested hundreds of billions of dollars in education, health and child and family services. We are working closely with provincial, territorial and indigenous governments. Budget 2023 includes about $125 million in investments to implement a plan to fight violence against missing and murdered women. We are working closely with all our partners.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais (Edmonton Griesbach, NDP)

May/2/23 8:19:33 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, today, as in times before, I unfortunately have to rise in this place to speak to this issue. I am a new member of Parliament. I have sat in this chamber for less than two years, and we are again debating the crisis facing murdered, missing indigenous women and two-spirit folks. This is not just a crisis. We often talk about this being a crisis, but these are people's lives, just like those of my colleagues and just like mine, and they have been affected so greatly by mistreatment, neglect and, oftentimes, ignorance. It is the will of ignorance when it plays out this way. What I mean by that is those times when we know that solutions exist, and there are champions to implement them, but we do not show up to the table with the resources to support them. That is one of the most critical problems we are here to address. It is one I want to highlight in a different way. The last time I spoke to this issue, I spoke about my family. I spoke about my mother, who is no longer with us. I spoke about my sister, who is no longer with us. I spoke about the people in my life who are not here anymore. There are individuals right across this country who feel the same way I do. They feel robbed of the kind of justice that Canadians deserve. They feel neglected by the systems that were built to support us. We feel broken by a country that does not want to see who we are. There are fundamental questions about what kind of country we want to build. Who belongs in this country? When we allow women to be murdered, go missing and find themselves in dumps, that is not a society that values indigenous women and two-spirit folks. We think we understand this issue, when it is far greater than its results. What I mean by that is that the issue that is present to indigenous people is much greater than the consequences we often find ourselves in. We are talking about the consequences of serious issues. We are talking about the consequences of government in action. We are talking about the consequences of wilful racism. We are talking about the consequences of genocide. In order for us, and all Canadians, to understand how deeply important this issue is, we have to understand how deeply wounded our country is. Canada may present itself to the world as just. We even, oftentimes, as members of this chamber, have a belief in the kind of country we have told ourselves is just. It is a process, not a destination. We need to ensure that we take more seriously the concerns and solutions of indigenous leaders in this place. I spoke to young people who were invited here by my good friend, the hon. member for Edmonton Centre, to speak about what youth are doing, given this crisis. Young people are having to fend for themselves right now. They call it peer-to-peer support. They say that because they are only there for one another, when in fact they should have the support of the government. They even went so far to say that residential schools took so much from them, and now that the government recognizes that, it does not want to give anything. Members of the New Democratic Party spoke previously about the things we need to do to see resources get into the hands of organizations such as A7G, the Assembly of Seven Generations, which has fought so long to see just one call to action implemented of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, call to action 66. Although the willingness of the government was there to find people to do a report and to commission results, the results did not hit the mark. Those youth are still asking for support. Those youth are still here looking for ways to survive. Some of those youth found themselves in the street because of the failure of our inability to see the solutions and put the tools of those solutions in the hands of those who will do the work. I will end with this: Indigenous youth are not just victims. Women, girls and two-spirit people are not just victims. They are resilient. They are here because of their will. They are here because they fought, and they are here because they are valued. They know that. We will stand with them, and we will not let up.

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Ms. Michelle Ferreri (Peterborough—Kawartha, CPC)

May/2/23 8:24:41 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, my colleague's speech was very passionate. It was great to listen to. One of the questions I would love to ask the member, and it is a topic we have studied in our status of women committee, is about educating young men, not only young indigenous men, but also men in general, about this and giving them the tools to recognize what is wrong. We do not know what we do not know. How does the member feel about programming for educating, in particular, young men about this?

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