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Jun/1/22 9:26:42 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I agree that we need to continue to do the work in the Arctic. That is incredibly important. I also want to say that I represent 19 Wing Comox. I know how hard those folks are working every day in my area to protect not only our region but the whole country. I also know that they are facing the reality of trying to repair planes when they cannot necessarily do so in a very safe way. It concerns me greatly. The NDP firmly believes that when we ask people to do a job, we must give them the equipment that they need to do it. Safety has to be paramount. I will also go back to the idea that we need to see investment in humanitarian aid and support increased. If we are going to see military spending increase, it must be paired, because if we are not doing both, then we are not committed to peace.

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Ms. Christine Normandin (Saint-Jean, BQ)

Jun/1/22 9:27:38 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague from North Island—Powell River. I also travelled with her to Lithuania. A few of us here this evening travelled there. We are probably all still feeling a bit jet-lagged. What I realized on the trip is that, as parliamentarians, we try to share our information with our foreign counterparts, but we are mostly looking for information. We then act as spokespeople, sharing our takeaways with our House colleagues, in order for the response to be much more concerted and collaborative. I would like to know what my colleague's main takeaway from the mission was and where it came from. What message does she wish to share with our parliamentary colleagues so that we can follow up with concerted action?

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Ms. Rachel Blaney

Jun/1/22 9:28:31 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it was such an amazing event with so much information that it is hard to pick one thing after the many reports that we heard. When we hear from all the different countries, to me it is very important to make sure that people understand that the countries have different thoughts and opinions on working out issues. There is a lot of discussion today about Turkey and how important it is for all of our countries to start to work to get Turkey to the next step. That is why we have to focus on the idea of an alliance. An alliance is like having a big family. Sometimes people agree and sometimes people disagree, but if we are going to come together when we need to, we will have to work together.

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Hon. John McKay (Scarborough—Guildwood, Lib.)

Jun/1/22 9:29:19 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it is an honour and a pleasure to participate in this debate. I will be splitting my time with the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands. I am not quite sure how that got in there, but my colleague from Saanich—Gulf Islands and I are apparently splitting this time, and I am honoured to do so. As members have heard, a number of us travelled to Vilnius, Lithuania, in the past few days to participate in the parliamentary NATO conference. It was truly one of those extraordinary experiences, which I had the honour of sharing with the members for Saint-Jean, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, North Island—Powell River and Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, as well as Senator Cordy and Senator Bellemare. As the member for North Island—Powell River indicated, it is an important element of our responsibilities to participate in these meetings, which extend parliamentary diplomacy and extend our values as Canadians as we try to wrestle with some of the most intractable issues in global politics. When one lands in Vilnius and comes out of the airport, one sees a country that is sort of emerging from Soviet occupation. Some of the buildings are extraordinarily beautiful. Some are clearly classic, and others are this brutal Soviet architecture, which is just kind of falling down. When one gets to the hotel, one is in a revitalized area of the city, and as one emerges from the hotel, one is confronted with the history of the Baltics, the history of Lithuania. As one walks out of the hotel and goes to the main street, on the left are the parliamentary buildings, about three blocks away, where the issues are debated, which is essentially where we were for the three or four days that we were in Vilnius. I must say that the presentations were absolutely extraordinary. They were pointed, detailed, very useful and very united. Interestingly, one of the speakers there was the defence minister from Ukraine, and, today, he received a threat of assassination. Nothing focuses the mind like that. However, this was the kind of atmosphere in which we spent, peripherally I would say, three or four days. From the hotel, if one goes left, there are the parliamentary buildings, and if one goes right, about the same distance, three blocks, one gets to the Vilnius version of Lubyanka, which is where the Russians tortured and killed political prisoners. This one in Vilnius is now a museum to the genocide of the Soviet occupation. Our delegation did not have time to tour what has been turned into a museum of genocide, but as I walked down the sidewalk, in this beautiful, old town of the city, with a gorgeous park right across the street, I saw inscribed on the walls of this prison the names of the people who had been tortured and killed in that building. What is even more extraordinary, when we read the birth dates and the death dates, is that these people were 23, 25, and occasionally 40 years old. Sometimes they were 21 years old, and sometimes they were even a teenager. Their lives were cut off at the beginning of their aspirations to live a full human life. The reality of these brutal occupations of the Baltic nations over the course of history just descends on us. This is where history and geopolitics merge. The Baltic nations, whether Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania, have always been the highways to Hell, and whether it was German or Soviet occupations, they have been occupied. Lithuania has actually enjoyed relatively few years of independence, so for the average citizen of Lithuania, this is is not an abstraction. It is not an academic discussion at Carleton University or the University of Ottawa political science department. This is reality for these folks, so when we talk about Finland or Sweden joining NATO, that means something, and that is a real security guarantee that, up to now, they have not enjoyed. They are afraid, and for a darned good reason, of the Baltic Sea turning into a Russian lake because they would then be threatened not only from land borders, but also from the Baltic Sea, much like the Black Sea, which Putin is attempting to turn into a Russian lake. The joining of Sweden and Finland to the NATO alliance puts that whole enterprise in an entirely different light, and it enables citizens in countries such as Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia some measure of guarantee, which we, as Canadian citizens and North Americans, do not even understand. We do not get it. For the Europeans, World War III has already started. They understand Bucha in a way that we do not understand it, because Bucha is on the main street to Vilnius. It is memorialized in the lives and deaths of those young Lithuanians, so we are, respectfully, quite naive about what this actually means. My colleagues and I had some extraordinary experiences, but the one experience that really stayed with me was supper with the committee chairs of the Polish parliament, the German parliament, the Lithuanian parliament and a young Ukrainian MP who reminded me, frankly, of my daughter. I asked her how she was coping with this, and she said she was frozen inside because she had lost family and colleagues. She understood this in a visceral way that none of the rest of us do. The other experience that really hit on me was what the rest of us experienced, which was a young Ukrainian MP calling into the conference who had only five minutes. As she spoke, she said that her signal had been tracked and she needed to hang up the phone, and she went to the bomb shelter. That is reality in the Baltic nations and Ukraine. I wish I could convey that to my colleagues and our nation.

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Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, CPC)

Jun/1/22 9:39:43 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I want to thank the member for his very insightful and interesting remarks. I have a great deal of respect for him. I was born in Germany. My dad was in the air force. It was during the missile crisis. We were very close to nuclear war. It was during the time that the Berlin Wall was built. Then in 1989, the wall came down. People thought there was no more need for NATO. People cut their military expenses, including Canada. Obviously, we see now the importance of NATO. Finland and Sweden are putting their names forward. We are certainly supportive. We in the House are supportive. Former Liberal member of Parliament Andrew Leslie, who was a lieutenant-general, said the Liberal Party is not serious and does not have a plan for our military or for NATO. I think that is cutting. I wonder if this has maybe brought about a change of thinking.

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Hon. John McKay

Jun/1/22 9:41:00 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I consider myself a friend of the Hon. Andrew Leslie, whose service to the nation is well respected. In some respects, as my speech indicated, we do not get the seriousness of the threat that Putin-ism presents to us. Ukrainians are fighting for us as well as for their nation. Where we need to get our act together is in supporting them in a real and material way. I like to think, and I take note, and maybe the hon. member would not appreciate it, but the Ukrainian defence minister, in his presentation, noted Canada's defence minister and appreciated her contributions to the fight.

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Ms. Christine Normandin (Saint-Jean, BQ)

Jun/1/22 9:42:03 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, my colleague is always so fascinating to listen to. While we were in Lithuania, I heard something that has stuck with me. Lithuania's parliament building, the Seimas, is not particularly attractive. Some Lithuanians even called it ugly. However, they are particularly proud of it for what it represents, since people have put their lives, hearts and souls into that building. Indeed, as my colleague said, after gaining its independence for the first time, Lithuania was occupied for several years, first by the Russians, then by the Germans to whom the Russians had given it, before returning to Russian rule until its independence in 1991. Several times during our visit, the Lithuanians reminded us that they had warned us of what was going to happen. In my colleague's view, why did we not listen?

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Hon. John McKay

Jun/1/22 9:43:05 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague is right. It is not a particularly attractive building, but I was not going to use the word “ugly”. She is also right in the sense that we are not listening. We did not listen in 2008. We did not listen in 2014, and we have been slow to listen in 2022. It is not as if Vladimir Putin does not signal what he is going to do. He tells us what he is going to do. It is blindingly obvious that, if he is successful in Ukraine, then the Baltic nations are next.

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Ms. Rachel Blaney (North Island—Powell River, NDP)

Jun/1/22 9:43:57 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank the member both for being my travel companion and also for his intervention in the House. I could not agree more. I was on a trip not too long with the veterans minister across parts of France, the Netherlands and Belgium. I stood in many graveyards that had children buried there, 16 year olds to 25 year olds. It got to the point that, when I saw somebody who was over 35, I thought they had had a long life. I think this is a recognition of why we must always work towards peace, because that is a very high price to pay. I am just wondering if this member could talk a little about an election promise in 2019 to set up a centre for peace, order and good government here in this country, where we are with that, and if that is going to be happening.

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Hon. John McKay

Jun/1/22 9:44:43 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it is always the youth who pay the price for wars. Most of the generals are older and the people who are getting killed are frequently younger people. Boy, that was blindingly obvious in the prison in Vilnius, but also in the member's experience as well. On peace, order and good government, I do not know where we are on that. It is a worthwhile initiative. One cannot separate diplomacy, aid and military abilities. It needs to be a team Canada approach in all matters. I would like to think we are making some progress on that, but I do not always know that we are.

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Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP)

Jun/1/22 9:45:43 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, we are debating something that I think and hope we can look to some consensus on. I will confess that it is a tough issue for Green Party members to talk about NATO. For us, questions about NATO are difficult and complicated because of our deep commitment to peace and the principles of non-violence. I am part of a global party. It does not come up very often in this place that I am a member of Parliament in Canada, within a family of global Greens. One of those global Greens is Pekka Haavisto, who is Finland's Minister for Foreign Affairs and a very germane part of the debate tonight. Up until December, a friend of mine, Per Bolund, co-leader of the Green Party of Sweden, was Sweden's deputy prime minister, but the Swedish Greens just left the Swedish coalition, for reasons I need not get into here. As Greens, we have a profound commitment to peace and non-violence, which means, to say it just as clearly as I can, that I am no fan of NATO. Greens are not, generally, because it is a military. It is a defensive alliance, but it is not without issues for those of us who are committed to non-violence. It has been an issue for us to know that we absolutely, unequivocally believe that Vladimir Putin is solely responsible for Russia's attack on Ukraine and we are on the side of Ukraine and Ukrainians. We are supportive of every action our government has taken, but it is not without difficulty for us. How do Greens feel about Canada being in NATO? In an ideal world, when the Warsaw Pact ended, NATO would have ended too. That is how we see it. NATO's continued involvement in the world does create tensions that we probably would not have needed if, and this is a big “if” and one of the main things I want to talk about tonight, we had had the former Soviet Union and the United States pursue nuclear disarmament. When Mikhail Gorbachev was championing perestroika and glasnost, he also picked up the phone and called former U.S. President Ronald Reagan. He asked, “Do you want to end nuclear weapons, because I do?” Ronald Reagan said, “I do too.” By the way, the reason I know this is that Mikhail Gorbachev told that story to a small group of people in a room in Rio de Janeiro at Rio+5. I was there because I was part of a committee that Mikhail Gorbachev co-chaired. However, in the years that followed, the efforts toward nuclear disarmament faltered. I believe that Donald Trump was a puppet of Vladimir Putin and the two of them decided, or at least Putin decided, “Let's not get rid of nuclear weapons. Let's slow down the talks. Let's not have nuclear non-proliferation discussions anymore. Let's not have nuclear disarmament discussions anymore.” It has made the world less safe. This is in the context of Vladimir Putin and Russia's completely illegal war. I mean, wars are generally illegal. It is hard to know when a war is exactly legal because many of them are founded on lies: the Vietnam War, the Iraq War. We can make up a story about why we need to attack this other country, but there are some wars that we know were morally justified, such as the allied forces confronting fascism in the Second World War. Many of our parents, my parents and many people in this room had family members engaged in that war. As the member for Scarborough—Guildwood just said, it is the young people who suffer in wars. It is the young people who die, but with some wars we can see the moral justification. In this case, supporting Ukraine really matters. However, I question what Canada should be doing in NATO. I want to share that with all of my colleagues as I conclude my remarks. Spoiler alert, I will agree with the motion that Finland and Sweden should be supported in joining NATO, because that is what they ask for right now. As I said, my colleagues in the global Green Party, global Green parliamentarians, asked for that. We respect the decisions made within countries by our colleagues in the Green Party. There is no question from the Greens that we support that Finland and Sweden should be supported in joining NATO. However, let me ask this question. The budget of 2022 said clearly that we are going to have a foreign policy review. In that foreign policy review, I hope we will ask this question: Should Canada stay in NATO? Why is it an advantage for Canada to be a member of NATO? It may be an advantage, but this century's greatest threat to our safety is not a military one. It is the threat of climate change. Climate change is a greater threat to our future than all the military powers of the world. Why would we stay in NATO? I believe we should stay in NATO to advocate for nuclear disarmament. We would play an important role in saying to our NATO partners that the world is less safe because of nuclear weapons. If we had succeeded where Mikhail Gorbachev and Ronald Reagan had hoped to go and where Lester B. Pearson would have hoped to go, and if we had moved to remove nuclear weapons, how much more effective would we be now to help Ukraine? When President Zelenskyy asked us, in this space, on Zoom, for a no-fly zone, we knew we could not do it because we are NATO partners and Vladimir Putin has threatened the use of nuclear weapons. If we had been a non-aligned, neutral nation, could we have done more? NATO itself is, in a sense, muscle-bound. It has so many armies and it has nuclear weapons. It cannot confront Russia without threatening what we always heard about in the Cold War, the strategy of nuclear weapons and mutually assured destruction. There is no future or hope in that. In this instance tonight, for the first time that I have ever had a chance to speak in this place about NATO, I would say to all of my colleagues here, let us look at what makes the world safer. The world will be safer when nuclear weapons are eliminated. We have now before us, and it has taken legal effect, the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. Enough countries around the world, nation-states, have signed on, but none of the nuclear powers have signed on and Canada has not even signed on to be an observer to the conversation. At the end of this month, June 20-22 in Vienna, will be the first state-party gathering under the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. I know that my colleague here from Edmonton Strathcona and I, as well as a senator from the other place, plan to go to Vienna. We hope our government will be there as a delegation. We hope we sign on. In the meantime, as we examine this question, Finland and Sweden have been made less secure by Russia's assault on Ukraine. We have to do two things at all times: We have to defend Ukraine and do everything we can to put pressure on Russia to get to a peace talk and to get to a ceasefire; and we have to look beyond the immediate conflict in Ukraine and say, “How do we make the world safer?” We make the world safer when nuclear weapons are abolished.

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Hon. John McKay (Scarborough—Guildwood, Lib.)

Jun/1/22 9:55:28 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I want to share an experience with the hon. member about NATO. I was travelling with John Manley, the then foreign affairs minister. Our itinerary was London, Paris, Riga and Berlin. When we were in Riga, the President of Latvia came into the room and she harangued John and me for 20 minutes about getting into NATO. This was in September 2001. She did not want anything else. She just wanted into NATO, because she saw NATO as her best security guarantee against the Russians. We went to Germany and, to John's credit, he put the Latvian question to the Germans. They had the same question: “What about the Russians?” Is the hon. member prepared to assert her judgment about the utility of NATO against the President of Latvia's judgment about the utility of NATO?

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Ms. Elizabeth May

Jun/1/22 9:56:45 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, in the context of a nuclear armed Russia and Latvia, that is a concern, and I cannot second-guess what the President of Latvia said, but would her response had been different if we had done the right thing? When the U.S.S.R. broke down and capitalism decided to declare capitalism had won and communism had lost, why did we not do a Marshall plan for Russia? Why did we not build the democratic institutions? Why did we leave the people of Russia to reduced life expectancy, to reduced economic opportunities and to the crony capitalism of Putin's friends? We let them down. We could have changed that, so I cannot answer the question because the context could have been so different if we had done more for the people of Russia.

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Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)

Jun/1/22 9:57:52 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I always enjoy the speeches given by my dear colleague from Saanich—Gulf Islands. I am not the only one, as my father also adores my hon. colleague, and I think they have a lovely friendship. That is one of the reasons I want to ask her the following question. My father, who was also an MP, always told me that we are free to take whatever position we want on a motion or a bill, but it must be for the right reasons. I really like my colleague from Saanich—Gulf Islands because she is always very honest and genuine when she answers questions. From what I have understood, she will support this motion because the Swedish and Finnish Greens support it. Had they not taken a position on this motion, would she still have supported it?

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Ms. Elizabeth May

Jun/1/22 9:58:48 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my esteemed colleague for the question. I thank him for his comments, especially those regarding the friendship between his father and me. It is so true. If the greens in Finland and Sweden had not taken a position, our response may have been different. However, our foreign colleagues are clear: They are now under threat from Russia and Mr. Putin's regime, and they need NATO protection. That is why the Greens will of course vote in favour of this motion.

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Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)

Jun/1/22 9:59:41 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I would like to echo some of my colleagues in this place and thank the member for her genuine honesty in her intervention today. Two former prime ministers of Canada, three former foreign ministers, two former defence ministers and all members of the Liberal Party have endorsed the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. In fact, they wrote a letter on September 21, 2019, rebuking NATO for its opposition to the treaty. I am wondering if the member could tell us why she thinks the previous members of the Liberal Party could support that but the current government cannot?

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Ms. Elizabeth May

Jun/1/22 10:00:21 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, our government appears to be slavishly and unthinkingly willing to do whatever the U.S. administration wants.

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Mr. James Bezan (Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, CPC)

Jun/1/22 10:00:36 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it is indeed an honour to join everyone tonight virtually to talk about NATO and the application for membership to NATO by Finland and Sweden. It is something I hope we can strongly support unanimously in this chamber to send a strong message to all allies in the NATO alliance and hopefully convince those who are somewhat hesitant to accept the membership applications from Finland and Sweden. We know that Sweden and Finland have been closely co-operating with NATO and the European Union's collective defence agreement for quite some time. They have modern militaries, modern economies and very progressive societies that we all appreciate and admire. There is no reason to reject their applications to NATO. We know that both Finland and Sweden have been non-aligned, neutral nations since the end of World War II, but that has dramatically changed with Putin's illegal invasion, Russia's war, and the war crimes and atrocities being committed in Ukraine. Of course, our thoughts, prayers and efforts are to help Ukraine win this war. We know that the entire NATO alliance is doing everything it can and is nervous about how this is going to play out. This means countries that do not have the ability to be part of the strong alliance we have through NATO want to join. Although there may be some naysayers out there who are going to say this is NATO enlargement pushing farther toward Russia's border, nothing could be further from the truth. These are independent countries that want to make sure they can take advantage of what we enjoy and take for granted here in Canada, which is deterrence through our collective defence. Article 5 almost guarantees that no NATO member will ever be invaded by a foreign nation such as the Russian Federation. Vladimir Putin is at the helm of the Russian Federation and has control of the criminal organization within the Kremlin, the kleptocrats. He has been running a mafia-styled organization with a very disturbing philosophy and revisionist history that he is trying to force upon the world. His demented reasoning for invading Ukraine cannot go unchecked, but that means the Baltic nations and Arctic nations that share space with Russia are increasingly concerned. That is why there has been a change of heart so quickly. In a matter of three months, we have seen Sweden and Finland make this historic application for membership 73 years after the beginning of the NATO alliance. I want to thank the foreign affairs committee for doing this work, putting together this report and giving us this opportunity to express, as parliamentarians and ultimately as the Government of Canada, our support for their membership applications. Let us look at why they are so nervous and why they made this decision to join with other Baltic nations that already enjoy this alliance, such at Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Poland. We know that these nations have all joined over the last 25 years. We also know that Canada has been playing a major role in Latvia as part of NATO's enhanced forward presence, and increasing military deterrence activities within Latvia, leading several other nations in a battle group there. The more we can do to bolster the defences of eastern Europe, the safer we are here at home. We are an Arctic nation; we share territory with Russia. It is good to know the United States, Canada and Norway, which are already NATO members, will now be joined by two more Arctic nations, Finland and Sweden, in this alliance. We can hopefully bring Russia back into a reasonable conversation, after it leaves Ukrainian sovereign territory, about how best to move forward to protect the Arctic, do search and rescue and make other investments in the Arctic area. Canada needs to do more for Ukraine. We are watching this war on a daily basis, and it continues to pull at all our heartstrings. We know this is more than a tragedy: An atrocity has been committed. We have been talking about Bucha and what has happened in Mariupol. Hospitals, schools, seniors homes and maternity wards have been intentionally targeted. We know that Putin and his henchmen within the Russian army have been committing these crimes against humanity, and they have been ordered from the top down. Everyone who is responsible for those atrocities must be held to account. I am glad to see that Ukraine's public prosecutor is putting together all the evidence to take to the Hague in front of the International Criminal Court. Canada needs to assist in that every step of the way. For quite a while, the Conservatives have been calling on the Liberal government to do more to help Ukraine. The humanitarian corridors need to be implemented by giving Ukraine anti-air and air defence systems so that it can ensure its airspace is protected and so that those fleeing war zones can get to safety and humanitarian assistance and relief can get into besieged cities such as Kharkiv. We know that Ukraine has been asking for more armoured vehicles. We have asked many times in the House, and I asked it again just a couple of weeks ago, why Canada is not sending its about-to-be-retired light armoured vehicles: our Bisons, Coyotes, Kodiaks and M113 Tracked LAVs. All of those are going to be decommissioned over the next year, and the replacement vehicles are already built and sitting in London, Ontario, waiting to be accredited. In that tranche of light armoured vehicles, there are 32 armoured ambulances as part of the LAV II configuration that could be sent to Ukraine, which desperately needs them right now. The government knows those light armoured vehicles would save lives, but for whatever reason, the Minister of National Defence and the Minister of Foreign Affairs have not moved on sending these LAVs, which could easily be donated by Canada as they are in good working order. We have also asked the government to—

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Carol Hughes)

Jun/1/22 10:09:07 p.m.
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We have a point of order from the hon. member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame.

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Mr. Clifford Small

Jun/1/22 10:09:20 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I think my hon. colleague might have forgotten to mention that he is splitting his time.

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