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Mar/28/22 5:49:19 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, in our view, Bill C-8 represents a significant encroachment on provincial tax jurisdictions. This new tax on underused housing infringes on the property taxation jurisdiction. The Bloc Québécois proposed an amendment at the Standing Committee on Finance. We asked that Quebec and the provinces be given the right to opt out, so that the provinces could tell the federal government not to encroach on their areas of jurisdiction. The Liberal committee chair of the Standing Committee on Finance ruled the amendment inadmissible, which meant that it could not even be debated. Does my colleague think it would have been a good idea to give the provinces the right to opt out on property taxation?

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Mr. Pat Kelly

Mar/28/22 5:50:10 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, the member seemed to refer to something that happened at finance committee. I am not sure I caught exactly the piece of tax legislation that he was concerned about for provincial jurisdiction, but provincial jurisdiction is something that Conservatives always respect. We respect the Constitution and the delineation of provincial responsibilities. I am not certain I have a specific answer to his question, but I certainly believe in provincial jurisdiction.

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Mr. Mark Gerretsen (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons (Senate), Lib.)

Mar/28/22 5:50:56 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, I listened to the comments made by the member today and I cannot help but once again reflect on the fact that no Conservatives who have spoken, at least in my time listening to the debate today, have actually been talking about the substance of this actual bill. Nonetheless, I know it is so important for them to keep debating this as they are the only ones in the House who are still going on about this. I would hate to think that this was done with the intent of trying to delay passage of the bill. In the interests of continuing to debate this and to give them more opportunity, I am wondering this. If I were to move a unanimous consent motion that we sit until midnight in order to allow Conservatives to keep speaking and debating this, would the member support that?

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Mr. Pat Kelly

Mar/28/22 5:51:44 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, I do not know that I would object, but I cannot speak for all the members in the chamber, so he is welcome to try that on. He must not have listened to much of my speech, because I spoke about a number of things that the bill does and a number of things that the bill fails to do. I drew attention to the way the bill withdraws the criteria around the continuation of stimulus spending. The Liberals just dropped that and then continued with $70 billion in non-COVID additional spending. I did not get to that in my speech for lack of time. I will not support the bill. I do not think any of my Conservative colleagues will. We have no confidence in the government.

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Mr. Daniel Blaikie (Elmwood—Transcona, NDP)

Mar/28/22 5:52:36 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, I wanted to hearken back to the finance committee where we passed an amendment to the bill, in respect to some of the money that is being disbursed, for quarterly reporting on how it was spent. That was exactly in response to the comments by the PBO that the member cited in his speech about the late filing of public accounts. We had proposed another amendment on the rapid test purchases. Because it was asking for information from the provinces on how funding was spent, that particular one was defeated not with the help of the NDP, who in fact moved that amendment, but with the help of the Bloc at committee because the Bloc did not agree the provinces should report on how the money was spent. I want the member to know that we continue to care about how the public's money is spent, and we are actually proposing solutions to ensure that there is good scrutiny of government spending on this side of the House.

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Mr. Pat Kelly

Mar/28/22 5:53:31 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, I do not think I caught a question there, but I will respond to the member's comment. He is a thoughtful member. I have served at committee with him before and I know that he is a champion of transparency and accountability from government. I certainly hope that he will continue to demand that, even as his party is choosing to support the government through until 2025.

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Mr. Dan Muys (Flamborough—Glanbrook, CPC)

Mar/28/22 5:54:09 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak again on Bill C-8, an act to implement certain provisions of the economic and fiscal update, particularly because since I last spoke on Bill C-8 on February 4, the housing crisis, the inflation crisis and the cost of living crisis have only gotten worse for Canadians. When I spoke in early February, the inflation rate was only the worst in 20 years. Now it is the worst in 30 years and getting worse by the day. When I spoke in early February, the average home price in my home communities of the Hamilton and Burlington area was around $1 million, and now it is up 10% further, to $1.1 million and growing. This is a great failing of not only the fiscal update and economic statement but of the government overall when it comes to managing public finance and its impact on the economy and these issues. The cost of living crisis is spinning out of control. What is driving it is more spending. We know that the Parliamentary Budget Officer, as was previously alluded to by other speakers, including the one who spoke previous to me, was asked about the proposed spending that was contained in Bill C-8, and the response was, “It appears to me that the rationale for the additional spending initially set aside as 'stimulus' no longer exists.” Further, when asked at the finance committee, the Parliamentary Budget Officer confirmed that all of this deficit spending does contribute to inflation, which is why the $71.2 billion in additional spending proposed in the economic and fiscal update 2021 is just adding more fuel to the fire of inflation. It is going to make matters worse. We all know that gas, groceries and home heating are all going up, and that is exactly the wrong direction for Canadians who are struggling to pay their bills each month, including those in my constituency. We know there was a report that the average family would pay an extra $1,000 for groceries in 2022. I fear that realistically it may be more than that. Staple foods that we produce here in Canada are up. Chicken is up 6.2%. Beef is up almost 12%. Bacon is up over 19%. Bread is up over 5%. What does Bill C-8 do to remedy this situation, rather than exacerbate it? As was alluded to by the previous speaker, we are just four days away from more tax increases. On April 1, we will all be paying more at the pumps and other tax increases will take effect, such as the excise tax escalator that was referenced, and yet the new NDP-Liberal government voted down a sensible motion by the Conservatives last week to provide relief to Canadians by putting a pause on the GST at the pumps. What also worries me is the interest that is accumulating on all this massive debt hole that has been dug. How many more billions in interest are going to be accrued, especially as interest rates increase? Would it not be better to spend that on hospital beds or other investments in health care, or infrastructure, or on properly equipping our armed forces at a time of heightened security concerns? As I alluded to earlier, the housing crisis has been engulfing Canadians for some time now, and there is no relief in sight. There is certainly no relief in Bill C-8. Just down the road from where I am sitting right now, down the road from my constituency office, there are hundreds of new families moving in every month. They are leaving Toronto in search of a more affordable life here at the western edge of the greater Hamilton and Toronto area, except that housing prices are skyrocketing here too. Like so many other Canadians, they are mortgaged while at the same time being squeezed by inflation. In fact, the average family in the greater Toronto or Vancouver area spends about two-thirds of their gross income to meet monthly payments for an average home. How can families juggle this and the price of groceries? How can families juggle this and nearly $2 a litre at the pumps as they commute to work to pay that mortgage, while at the same time that gas is going to be taxed more this coming Friday? There is no real plan by the government to tackle housing inflation. Prices have doubled in Hamilton since the government came to office, and there is no plan to address the supply crunch. In the Hamilton area, we need 110,000 new homes built, of all shapes, sizes and affordability ranges, just to keep pace. Housing inflation is also inflating rents in our region. How can a young person save for a home when the cost of their rent is sky high and is, in fact, often more than they might pay in a mortgage payment down the road? It is a vicious cycle, which has meant that 50% of Canadians under the age of 40 have given up on the dream of home ownership, and that is sad. Canada has long been a land of opportunity for so many around the world to look to. People seek to immigrate here for a better life for themselves and a better life for their families, yet they arrive here and find they cannot afford to live. The housing is too expensive and inflation is going up, and that is what we are experiencing right now. It is having a devastating impact on all Canadians. Take Lucia and her husband, for example. They are seniors living on a fixed income in my riding. Unfortunately, they must rely on the generosity of family and friends to help them with housing costs because they cannot afford housing or rent. It is out of reach for them. What is the government doing to help with this housing inflation so that seniors like Lucia and her husband can find houses they can actually afford? Similarly, Roseanne is a well-educated young woman in her thirties living in the Upper Stoney Creek community within my constituency. Roseanne is saddened by what she sees among her peer group. She wrote to me recently and here is what she said: “For many years now, I have watched as my friends and colleagues have left Ontario for greener pastures in the west, or for a chance to enter the housing market in the east. Over the last two years, however, I have now witnessed a mass exodus not just from Ontario, my home province, but from Canada altogether.” This is not right. Young people are tired of living in their parents' basement. Where is the plan to fix this? There is also Heinz, who is a senior living on a fixed income in Flamborough. He has written to me a few times, and each time he showcases me his home heating bill. The totals are astronomical. They are going up a couple hundred dollars, month over month, over the winter, and the taxes on that home heating are adding insult to injury. Inflation is robbing Heinz and seniors like him of their golden years. Plus, rapidly rising prices of groceries are only making this worse. Where does it end? When do we focus on the economy and growing it, rather than growing the debt and deficit? Back in December, the OECD released a report that said Canada would be among the worst performing economies in the industrialized world this decade, and worse than perennial underperformers like Italy and Greece. Perhaps it is even more concerning that this report also indicated that it foresaw a further two decades of weak growth. I wonder why this is not raising more alarm bells. How does $71 billion of more spending, how do more taxes and how does more debt turn this around? The economic and fiscal update and Bill C-8 do not fix the housing crisis and do not cool the inflation crisis. Nor do they help people from my communities, like Lucia and her husband, Roseanne and Heinz, with the cost of living on a daily basis. That is why I stand with my Conservative colleagues and oppose this bill.

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Mr. John Barlow (Foothills, CPC)

Mar/28/22 6:03:23 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for talking about the impact that the bill will have on his constituents. I really appreciate him talking about the impact it will have on young Canadians and their ability to access some of the things they feel are important, like their first home. I am wondering if my colleague can expand on what he is hearing from his constituents and on the impact this increased spending is going to have on the cost of living, inflation and certainly the ability to access a first home.

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Mr. Dan Muys

Mar/28/22 6:03:59 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, it is certainly the most common question I get as a new member of Parliament from young Canadians who are frustrated that they cannot enter the housing market. When it is $1.1 million to buy a starter home in the Hamilton area and it has gone up $100,000 in the last month, they are further and further away from their dream of home ownership. It is extremely frustrating. At the same time, they are paying more at the pumps to commute to their job, usually in the greater Toronto area, which is also a huge frustration for those young people.

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Mr. Mark Gerretsen (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons (Senate), Lib.)

Mar/28/22 6:04:38 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, back to that last question and answer. Can the member tell me where in Bill C-8 it talks about the issue he just addressed? The question from the previous Conservative member asked specifically how this bill would be affecting people trying to buy a home. I am just wondering if the member can point out for me where in the bill it actually talks about that.

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Mr. Dan Muys

Mar/28/22 6:05:06 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, I think we are having a discussion about the fiscal update and economic statement. If we are going to talk about the economy, we need to talk about the things that are affecting Canadians very directly, and top of mind is the cost of living, which is exhibiting itself in the cost of groceries and housing in particular. All of the people whom I have cited, plus many other examples that I could bring forward, want to know what the government is doing to make their life more affordable.

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Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)

Mar/28/22 6:06:06 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his excellent speech. The Liberals are doubling down on their first-time homebuyer incentive, which is something that was introduced a couple of years ago, but it has helped less than 15% of its stated goal. Now, Conservatives have brought forward Motion No. 54, which would help increase supply. Could my colleague explain to the Liberals and the NDP why it is so important to let these failed programs die and reinvest that money so we can actually increase the supply for young people and seniors to have a safe place to live?

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Mr. Dan Muys

Mar/28/22 6:06:42 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, the member for Oshawa knows that the other end of the GTHA is experiencing some of the same market dynamics as we are here in the Hamilton area. Motion No. 54 is the right initiative because it addresses one of the key problems in the housing market, which is supply. I referenced the fact that here in Hamilton, and I have spoken with the Realtors Association of Hamilton-Burlington, we are short 110,000 homes just to catch up. I know that across the country we are short over a million, half of which are in Ontario, so that is a big gap to make up. Motion No. 54 looks to address the heart of the issue rather than the failed programs. When 15% over that many years is all that has been achieved, we are moving at a snail's pace. Frankly, what new graduate or young person, who is paying rent and cannot save up, is going to have that amount of money in an RRSP to withdraw from to invest in the first-time homebuyers program? It is just does not work.

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Mr. John Barlow (Foothills, CPC)

Mar/28/22 6:07:53 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, it is an honour always to rise in the House to speak on behalf of my constituents in Foothills and, in my role as shadow minister for agriculture and agri-food, to speak on behalf of farmers and farm families across Canada. We are talking about Bill C-8. There is one key element of Bill C-8 that I want to address today and discuss. That is the sharp contrast between what the Liberal government is proposing in its carbon tax rebate for farmers and what Conservatives are proposing in the private member's bill, Bill C-234, brought forward by my colleague from Huron—Bruce. We have seen a very sharp response from the Parliamentary Budget Officer that certainly counters the claims that have been made by the Liberal government. From the very beginning, when the Liberals have talked about their carbon tax, they have always said it is going to be revenue-neutral and that whatever anyone pays into the carbon tax they are going to be getting it back in a rebate. We know, from the report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer that came out last week, that this is completely untrue. In fact, Canadian farmers only get about $1.70 for every $1,000 of eligible expenses that they pay on the farm. That is definitely not revenue-neutral. In fact, that is only a fraction of what a farmer or a farm-family producer or agri-food business would spend in a carbon tax. All of us in this room who have farmers in their constituencies have received carbon tax bills from our constituents. I have had bills that have gone from a few thousand dollars to tens of thousands of dollars in one month, depending on the size of the operation. Therefore, to say that this carbon tax rebate is going to be revenue-neutral is misleading Canadians and certainly misleading farm families. We know now that the carbon tax is disproportionately more punitive on rural communities and especially on farmers. If that were not bad enough, we have seen already that the carbon tax has been quite punitive on farmers. We saw the numbers that have been put forward by the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. The average farmer paid about $14,000 in the first year of the carbon tax. That went up to $45,000 last year, and this is going to go up again on April 1. What is that going to mean, moving forward? MNP has stated that, in the canola industry alone, the carbon tax of 2022 cost about $71 million. By 2030, that carbon tax as it continues to increase is going to cost the canola industry alone $1.7 billion. Those are funds that are not going back into investments in technology and innovation. They are not funds that are going into the local rural economies. That money is going directly into Liberal government coffers and is not going to be redistributed, as the Liberals have claimed that it would be, to the farm families who are having to pay that. This is unsustainable, especially with the precarious situation that Canadian agriculture already faces with skyrocketing input costs on things like fertilizer, herbicides, diesel, propane and natural gas. Farmers are also facing very critical supply-chain problems and a crisis in labour supply. All of these things are having a compound negative impact on Canadian agriculture. It is almost nonsensical at this very tenuous time, when there is a global food shortage looming as a result of the conflict in Ukraine, that the government would continue to add to that burden by increasing the carbon tax on Canadian farmers. One of the other issues with it that was highlighted by stakeholders is that there are no viable alternatives presented in Bill C-8. I would invite some of my colleagues to come to rural Canada and see exactly how things work. A Canadian farmer cannot haul cattle with an electric car. It is physically impossible. A Canadian grain farmer cannot move his grain from the farm to the terminal on the subway. My riding is 25,000 square kilometres. Public transit does not exist. It certainly does not exist for the average citizen, but it definitely does not exist for a farm operation that needs to move product and drive very long distances to deliver its product to market and that needs to drive a tractor to spray and plant and drive a combine to harvest. There are no alternatives for these things. They have no choice. However, we have seen that they have managed and worked hard to improve efficiencies: their carbon footprint has gone down substantially as a result of modern technology and innovations such as zero tillage, precision farming and 4R nutrient stewardship. They have gone to great lengths to ensure that Canadian farmers are doing all they can to protect their environment and their soil, but government policy needs to be based on reality and the realities that Canadian farmers and farm families are having to face every single day. It is even more frustrating for those farmers who are investing money each and every year to improve their operations, because they are the frontline stewards of our environment. I would say that is known around the world, as Canadian farmers are world leaders when it comes to environmental sustainability. Looking at the Parliamentary Budget Officer's report on the carbon tax, it clearly states that the carbon tax does not even reduce emissions. It does not force people to reduce emissions because there are no viable alternatives when it comes to our ability to reduce emissions on farms. In fact, I would argue that it is quite the opposite. There was a study done by the Keystone Agricultural Producers two years ago. The report noted that agriculture has about 100 megatonnes of emissions a year, which has remained quite stable despite a massive increase in yield, so we are doing much better with much less because of our commitment to efficiency and sustainability. However, reading further on, what is very important in that study is that not only do farms emit about 60 megatonnes of C02 a year, but they also capture 100 megatonnes of C02 a year in carbon sequestration by taking care of the land. When that product leaves the farm gate and goes into the market, not only is agriculture already net-zero, but it is actually a 30-megatonne carbon sink. If that is the case, as agriculture stakeholder groups have said in their data, why are they not being celebrated or encouraged to continue on with the work that they are doing? Instead, we are doing exactly the opposite by punishing them with the carbon tax. They now clearly know from the Parliamentary Budget Officer's report that they will not be made whole: This is going to cost them money. That is money that they should be able to keep in their pockets and reinvest into their operations, reinvest into new energy-efficient equipment, and reinvest into more efficiencies in terms of agronomy, drones, precision agriculture and those types of things. When we take tens of millions of dollars out of farmers' pockets, it makes it very difficult for them to do that. In contrast to what is being offered by the Liberals in Bill C-8, the Conservatives have put forward a private member's bill, Bill C-234, that would exempt farm fuel from the carbon tax, specifically natural gas and propane used for heating and cooling barns and buildings, as well as for drying grain. That would allow those farmers to hold that money in their accounts and reinvest those dollars into their operations, again to make them more efficient and more sustainable. Unlike the Liberals' carbon tax in Bill C-8, Bill C-234 has almost unanimous support among agriculture stakeholders, including the Agriculture Carbon Alliance, which is a coalition of 14 different national farm organizations that represent 190,000 farm businesses and more than $70 billion in cash receipts. I think that is pretty critical, when all of those groups are supporting our approach to reducing emissions compared with the Liberals' obviously failing option. I will give some examples. Mary Robinson, the president of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, is in support. The Agriculture Carbon Alliance is supporting it. Jan VanderHout, president of Fruit and Vegetable Growers of Canada, has given notes of support. In conclusion, to have these stakeholders and our farm families across Canada supporting one direction in addressing emissions that is in complete contrast to and opposite from what the Liberals are proposing in Bill C-8 is, I think, something we need to listen to. Getting money back into producers' hands as quickly as possible is more beneficial, and it is more effective in reducing emissions, becoming more efficient and continuing to ensure that we can not only feed Canadians but carry that burden of feeding the world as well.

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Mr. Mark Gerretsen (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons (Senate), Lib.)

Mar/28/22 6:17:55 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, the member, in his speech today, talked about how “government policy needs to be based on reality”. My question to him would be what about the reality of climate change? What about the reality of the fact that half of the OECD countries have some form of price on pollution? What about the reality that the top economists throughout the world say that carbon pricing is an effective tool at curbing its usage. What about the fact that the member for Durham, when he was leader of that party, was in support of a price on pollution? What about the fact that Patrick Brown is a fan of carbon pricing? What about the fact that Jean Charest was in partnership with Dalton McGuinty and the premier of California to bring in cap and trade, a form of pricing pollution? I wonder if the member could speak to those realities.

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Mr. John Barlow

Mar/28/22 6:18:56 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, let us talk realities, as my colleague likes to say. The Parliamentary Budget Officer was very clear. The carbon tax is not revenue-neutral, as the Liberals claimed it was going to be. This is going to cost farmers. Most importantly, let us talk reality. The Parliamentary Budget Officer also said the carbon tax put forward by the Liberals does not reduce emissions. If we are going to base these policy decisions on science and data, the data clearly says it does not reduce emissions. All it does is cost farmers money and increase inflation. We know what we have put forward will reduce emissions because farmers are already doing it. We have seen a 60-million megatonne reduction in carbon emissions from farmers. Why have they done that? They have done that because it is the right thing to do. They have done that by reinvesting in their farmers with innovation and technology, not by being forced to do so by bad Liberal policy.

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Mr. Richard Cannings (South Okanagan—West Kootenay, NDP)

Mar/28/22 6:19:57 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Foothills for his speech. I think he realizes the NDP is supporting Bill C-234. He comes from one of the most beautiful ridings in the country. It is almost as beautiful as mine. What it does have is some of the most fabulous native grasslands in the country. I used to serve on the board of the Nature Conservancy of Canada. We did a lot of work in that area, working with ranchers to help conserve one of the most endangered ecosystems in the country. It was valuable to have ranchers on side to help us with that cause. Could he expand on that?

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Mr. John Barlow

Mar/28/22 6:20:43 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, I will not get into arguing with my colleague about which riding is nicer. He brings up a very good point. I always appreciate the opportunity to highlight that yes, in my riding, I am the heart of cattle country and Alberta beef. We also take a lot of pride in the fact that we are protecting one of the most endangered ecosystems on planet earth and that is Canada's grasslands. I know Canadians find that somewhat surprising at times, but the grassland ecosystem is more endangered than the coral reefs and the rainforests. It is so critical that our ranchers and our livestock producers take care to protect that grassland. Once it is gone, it is irreplaceable. It is so important for carbon sequestration and for carbon sinks that we protect that land so it is not developed for urban sprawl or any other options. It is critical that we protect that diversity.

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Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP)

Mar/28/22 6:21:42 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, I think it is really important, and I agree with my friend from South Okanagan—West Kootenay, that we need to emphasize the carbon sequestration potential of grasslands and the preservation of grasslands. I do not want to get into a full debate on carbon taxes with the hon. member because Bill C-8 does not mention carbon taxes, except for trying to give farmers more of a rebate. I also support, as does the hon. member who just spoke, the private member's bill to take the carbon tax off grain drying. The carbon tax program that the federal government put forward does exclude farmer's use of fossil fuels in the engines of cars and tractors, but not the grain drying. I think that was an oversight.

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Mr. John Barlow

Mar/28/22 6:22:30 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-8

Madam Speaker, I do want to thank my colleagues from the NDP, the Bloc and the Green Party who are supporting our private member's bill in exempting the farm fuels from the carbon tax, because it is so important that farmers are able to keep that money in their pockets to reinvest in ways to be more efficient and more sustainable. I want to thank my colleagues around the House for supporting that bill. I wish the Liberals would find it in their hearts to do the same.

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